Quote (Black XistenZ @ 9 Oct 2019 19:02)

your claim was that


the fact that trump was able to get elected against the overwhelming elite consensus debunks this claim, no matter if trump is himself a member of the plutocracy or not.


a significant chunk of the american people wanted trump, the overwhelming majority of elites and plutcrats wanted to prevent trump, we still got trump in the end. the 46% of the american people who wanted or at least preferred Trump did make their voices heard.

this shows that the oligarchy/plutocracy that the US allegedly is is a very imperfect one. rich people have a disproportionate amount of power, and poor people a disproportionately low amount of it, yes. but the rich in the US still have to fear the poor, they still have to fear elections from time to time, their control can still slip at any moment. the US is still a working democracy, no matter how much you folks from the commie parade try to characterize it as a right-wing dystopia.






so, by your logic, one is only free if one has no rights? oO


at the end of the day, outside of an anarchistic society, freedom can only be enjoyed if fundamental rights are protected by the government. free speech, property rights, due process, and so on.
these rights are a necessary but not sufficient condition for freedom. slaves who dont enjoy these rights cannot possibly be free, hence, my initial Goethe quote is not a contradiction.

Quote (excellence @ Oct 9 2019 08:11pm)

plaguefear says there is zero due process in America and that anyone in jail is the same as a concentration camp; while skinned says you are only free if you have no rights

this is why politicians backed by pale pasty privileged lefties like these two chuckle-brothers end up being major losers

Quote (Skinned @ 9 Oct 2019 20:12)

I love being in my climate controlled home with my rights and duties. I'm not an anarchist.

Quote (Plaguefear @ 10 Oct 2019 01:30)

Trump is IN the .0001%..
He has a voice.

Quote

You think trump didn't have powerful backing? You think the koch's and waltons voted hillary?

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 10 2019 11:21am)

so do his supporters. the ones who, according to your theory, should not have a voice.




their votes are irrelevant. their financial backing is what matters. and yes, Trump did struggle more with traditional GOP donors like the Kochs than a usual GOP nominee. and yes, in 2016, the financial backing from billionaire donors was more favorable to the Democrats/against Republicans than at any point recent history. Hillary's 2-to-1 fundraising edge over Trump didnt come out of thin air, and with how uninspiring and almost hated she was by the activist base of her own party (lol), I really dont think all that money in her war chest came from small donor donations.

this trend of wealthy people increasingly preferring the Democrats over Republicans has continued in 2018 and was one of the major reasons for their victory in the midterms.

Quote (Plaguefear @ 10 Oct 2019 03:19)

They have a voice because they were supporting a 1%er, trump has a voice, as i said.
This was not oligarch vs peasant this was oligarch vs much richer oligarch.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 10 2019 01:19pm)

trump only had a voice on the political stage because he resonated with these voters. which is something that can neither be bought nor hinges on him being a plutocrat.

Quote (Plaguefear @ 10 Oct 2019 04:20)

Of course it can be bought.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 10 2019 01:25pm)

to a certain, limited degree. but not to the degree necessary for a complete outsider to win the primary and then the general election for POTUS.

Romney was also a billionaire from the plutocrat class, and it didnt help him because his personality and his agenda simply were not resonating nearly as much with the republican base as Trump's.