Quote (proccy @ Sep 29 2020 01:32pm)

For the record, I'm quite interested in these discussions where just about any user can make thor look like a whiny little uneducated baby

Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 29 2020 11:29am)

In my work I generate scientific data and maintain lab equipment. If my paycheck is "the product of my labor" what is the data and lab equipment? My labor collected it, or maintained the value of it. I spent 0% of my time constructing a paycheck. That was done by HR.

What's happening here is you're making semantic arguments, and nobody is interested in talking about semantics. Like, I don't care if you call a screwdriver "turney stabbey tool", I care if you are using it for something. But you're stopping the whole process for the sake of making us call it "turney stabbey tool" because "definitions matter".

Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 29 2020 07:41am)

That is the exact opposite of capitalism.

In capitalism you sell your labor and your boss keeps the product of your labor.

The problem you describe of trade is solved by currency, not capitalism.

Quote (proccy @ Sep 29 2020 11:32am)

For the record, I'm quite interested in these discussions where just about any user can make thor look like a whiny little uneducated baby

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 29 2020 01:51pm)

You have claimed that "the boss keeps the product of my labor". That is false. I'm laboring for a paycheck, that I turn into capital goods, products, and services for myself. 100% of my time working is spent earning that paycheck.

The only person attempting to make a semantic argument is you. And frankly, it's so juvenile in nature that it has passed the point of stupid. My paycheck represents whatever I use it for. So my cars, my tools, my home, my clothes, my food etc. are all the products of my labor. Done.

:P

Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 29 2020 12:09pm)

You didn't answer my question. What would you call the thing I actually do at work then? If I am paid a wage to grow wheat, what is the wheat? If I'm paid to collect scientific data, what is the word for the data?

Everybody else calls the wheat "the product of my labor" and the money I'm paid in exchange for that a "wage", but you're insistent on calling it something else.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 29 2020 07:31am)

This is some of the least educated bullshit I have ever seen.

Capitalism is not some magical thing where only a few "investors" own things. Capitalism is the basic system where you own the product of your labor, and trade that product for the product of other people's labor. It's a simple system. "Can I trade you this 20 pounds of tomatoes that'll spoil before I have a chance to use them for your 20 pounds of potatoes that'll do the same" is a capitalist question. The capital in question is the produce, and the private ownership of that produce is why you're proposing the trade. That's all capitalism is, the private ownership of your labor. Meaning you own yourself.

Communist systems almost entirely utilize capitalist means to deal with other nations. They have to, or the only way they can get anything is through war. Communism states that there's zero private ownership. Your labor is owned by the community as a whole. This is an inherently inhuman line of thinking. That you're owned by the system, rather than owning yourself makes you a slave. And if you, as a slave of that system, refuse to perform the labor the system dictates, then the system falls apart. So naturally, the system needs enforcers who will insure that you, the slave of the system, perform your role. Somebody has to direct those enforcers. That someone will always, ALWAYS end up as a dictator.

Your attempt to distance communism from the USSR, the CCP, Venezuela, etc. fails to acknowledge that the very system itself is based on slavery, and slavery only works if it's enforced, and enforcement only occurs if it's directed. Communism has never "failed". It has been achieved multiple times in entirely predictable fashion: Millions dead.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 29 2020 02:22pm)

What you do at work is absolutely inconsequential to you if you work for someone else. If they fire you tomorrow, the lab and all it's assets will still be there for somebody else to work at. You personally do not matter to the lab anymore than the lab, in reality, matters to you.

The product of your labor, also referred to as the fruits of your labor are the benefits to YOU of YOUR labor. AKA, your paycheck. You aren't working "for the lab". You're working for yourself, and the benefits you gain, aka your paycheck.

The wheat, the scientific data, all of this is somebody else's. That you happen to be working it is 100% irrelevant. You've agreed to do this work so you gain a paycheck equal to whatever you've agreed your work is worth. Utilizing that payment, you now invest into yourself, be it via products, services, capital goods, whatever. The product of YOUR labor, YOUR benefit, are those products, goods, services, capital, etc. that you gained via YOUR paycheck, which is what YOU worked for.

This is the other thing that's pretty consistent about you socialist scum. You not only want to redefine language and attempt to redefine why people work, you're overly worried about shit that has nothing to do with you.

Quote (Bananii @ Sep 29 2020 12:45pm)

Communism is based on slavery? :bonk:

Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 29 2020 12:46pm)

Guess you're more interested in preaching and name calling than discussing

Quote (Bananii @ Sep 29 2020 12:45pm)

Communism is based on slavery? :bonk:

Quote (proccy @ Sep 29 2020 12:50pm)

No no it's just because nobody has practiced Marx properly yet like you said

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 29 2020 02:55pm)

You asked a question, I answered it, and now you dodge? Typical.