What do you mean? It's called the labour market. The typical worker sells their labour for a pre determined rate typically. This market rate is typically determined by the market obviously unless by gov't intervention, aka minimum wage.

Your labour is used to produce goods and services which are the propery of the the business that employed you. The business owner or shareholders are "pocketing" your labour, the "pocketed" amount may be negative if other aspects of fhs business is not under control and they cannot convert your purchased labour into profitable goods and services.

That's the very basic exchange that happens with 99% of labour market participants.

Incredible. Spoken like a person who has never interacted with the labor market outside of a classroom.

Forgetting for a moment that your description does NOT describe "99% of labour market participants", let's get right on with why anything you're saying might be relevant.

1. You negotiate and consent to your rate of pay. As does the employer.
2. The USD represents capital goods. You can use it to purchase means of production that you yourself own.
3. Right now, some 33% of the US workforce is considered "self-employed" and own their own methods of production. How do they figure into your calculations?

Businesses are not pocketing "the difference between the worth of your labor and what you produce." They come up with processes that allow a minimal profit based on the total sum of the business. Most businesses operate on a very slim (2%-5%) profit margin, and nearly all of that is directly attributable to the efforts of the owner/boss/whatever to come up with good processes. For personally owned small businesses, all too often, that profit value earns them LESS than many of those they employ. In cases such as Walmart or Amazon, the profit margins are tiny, but rely on huge bulk business to make the "millions and millions" figure work.

I've worked many jobs where I made more than my boss. And many businesses have gone out of business because of bad ownership. Supply lines, marketing, security, goods, services, all aspects of a successful business have to be considered. And the basic fact of the matter is, if the Janitor's rate of pay is $15/hour, the owner has to pay them $15 for every hour they work regardless of whether the business is making a profit at all.

Now, that Janitor who might very well be making a profit working for a business where the owner is going heavily into debt can take the product of their labor and purchase tools and a vehicle to go perform completely different services, such as yard maintenance, landscaping, etc. They have no obligation to the business they work for beyond their labor. And the product of their labor provided the capital goods necessary to create value elsewhere.

See? Joys of Capitalism, where capital goods, aka the means of production, are owned by private citizens, as opposed to a government.

And as already mentioned, there is no scenario where an "Anarchist" form of communism works. Because for the production to occur, people must be forced to do the work. Enforcers need leaders, and now you have another USSR, China, etc.

You're more interested in quibbling over definitions than actual content.

Definitions matter because agreeing on them is necessary to communication, not because words have objective meanings that impart something to the state of the world.

You need to scale back on your cocaine intake. You're just making stuff up now.

1)I didnt say you dont negotiate a rate, i said its predetermined, you negotiate a rate in exchange for labour, the rate was negotiated before the labour commences. The market will dictate if what you want is too high for your qualifications or the position and the employer will reject.
2) When did i say you couldn't purchase goods with money?
3) You become the person purchasing the labour & expending your own.

When did I question what margins are being made on goods and services? Why is that relevant? I simply stated that employers use labour that they purchased to convert it into goods and services that may or may not make money depending on other factors such as cost control. So what are babbling about?

In the case of a burger flipper, the "material difference" calculation is a lot more complex than simply adding up the price of the finished product and subtracting the costs.

The point is and was that "the product of your labor" in the case of employment is quite literally your paycheck. That paycheck quite literally represents both capital goods and finished product, and even services.

This is one of communism's largest failures. It's attempt to disassociate the worker from what they're working for. The janitor isn't working for an end result of cleanliness. The janitor is working specifically for their paycheck, and what it can provide that they can't provide for themselves.

The fact that a business does or does not get a profit, or goods, or any of that is 100% irrelevant to the worker. What the worker cares about, and what they're working for, aka the product of their labor, is that paycheck, which can in turn provide them capital goods. It's quite simple.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Sep 29 2020 12:05pm

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Like, yeah, it can be difficult to determine how much "value" a worker added in a specific amount of time or for a specific action.

the capitalists have more guns than you

was nice try fake revolution purely for facebook livestream views

In my work I generate scientific data and maintain lab equipment. If my paycheck is "the product of my labor" what is the data and lab equipment? My labor collected it, or maintained the value of it. I spent 0% of my time constructing a paycheck. That was done by HR.

What's happening here is you're making semantic arguments, and nobody is interested in talking about semantics. Like, I don't care if you call a screwdriver "turney stabbey tool", I care if you are using it for something. But you're stopping the whole process for the sake of making us call it "turney stabbey tool" because "definitions matter".

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Sep 29 2020 12:30pm

For the record, I'm quite interested in these discussions where just about any user can make thor look like a whiny little uneducated baby