From a publication by Amnesty International from 1996, in which AI heavily criticize both the Turkish government and the PKK:

https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a9ea0.html










It should be noted that this article from AI is in fact more critical of the Turkish government than the PKK, just so no one accuses me of selective quoting to misrepresent the content of my source.
AI calls out both sides, and the things they say about PKK atrocities should speak for themselves. Stuff like this is what I refer to when I say that "the Kurds are no innocent lambs" and that the PKK clearly IS a terrorist organization.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 23 2019 12:10pm

why am i not surprised that you focus exclusively on its most violent phase, which has indeed been rightfully condemned by various international human rights organisations, while fully ignoring their more recent history, and focus / ideological shift?
(btw, i love how you refer to AI when you think it serves your purpose, but outright dismiss them when it comes to the condemnation of israel's human rights violations against palestinians.)

again, the 'technically a terrorist organisation, as categorised by america and europe' is ignoring the historical context that i tried to provide, and it's downplaying the role of turkey in this conflict - and by 'role' i mean their KILLING, DISENFRANCHISEMENT, DRIVING PEOPLE OFF THEIR LAND, and other SYSTEMATIC INJUSTICES towards the kurdish people, long before the pkk was even founded...
but hey, their voice was not heard when modern nation states were established, so by your definition they have 'never been autonomous, and therefore their resistance is somehow not as legitimate. also, turkey is not quite as bad as the nazis were'... so much for one-sided propaganda...

This post was edited by fender on Oct 23 2019 12:36pm

How about YOU providing some info or sources into this more recent history and ideological shift? After all, I provided proof from a credible and mostly unbiased source that the PKK was indeed a violent terrorist organization in the not so distant past, while all you provided is a statement from the PKK itself, i.e. the most biased source on the Turkey/Kurd conflict one can imagine.

I provided a basis for arguing that the PKK should be subject to a ton of scrutiny. You argue that the PKK has changed recently and should be looked at more favorably. Given their violent past, this change of perspective on the contemporary PKK really takes something tangible and substantial, and it is on you to provide it, not me. It's really presumptuous of you to pretend that the alleged recent ideological shift of the PKK must be common knowledge and that everyone who doesnt know of it or doesnt buy into it is some sort of uninformed ignoramus.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 23 2019 01:01pm

Is Turkey a terrorist organization? Is the United States?

No, they are countries. Afaik, countries can by definition not be terrorist organizations. Anyway, both Turkey and the United States have committed war crimes and atrocities against civilians as well, and yes, their actions and statements regarding the Syria/Kurdistan situation should be subject to the same levels of scrutiny as those of the PKK.

If someone posted a propaganda pamphlet from the Turkish perspective, similar to the one Fender posted from the PKK perspective, then I would call him out too.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 23 2019 01:07pm

So fighting for the liberation of your land is terrorism. Was the United States founded by terrorists?

First of all, as the saying goes, "history is written by the winners".

Second, it depends a lot on what you mean by "liberation" and "your land": how oppressive is the current government, and how strong is your own claim to the land in question versus the claim of the government you're fighting against?

Third, terrorism is defined chiefly by its methods. Systematically targetting and intimidating unaffiliated civilians, torturing or randomly executing prisoners as well as massacres are not excusable, not even if you're fighting for a righteous cause. The US during the war of independence dont fit any of these criteria.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 23 2019 01:16pm

Oh boy, you didn't do much learnin' in school, did ya?

you're missing an important distinction here: your lack of historical context (while still making sweeping claims) does not mean that's the perspective that i am posting from, while calling out your extremely biased dismissal of an open letter as 'propaganda'. YOU make that claim while exclusively focusing on the worst possible 'arguments' you can find for it: their categorisation (ofc outright ignoring the context under which that happened), and the criticism they justifiably received during a particularly violent phase.

had you simply stated that you didn't know enough, and relied on their label to be critical of that letter, i would have said 'fair enough, maybe educate yourself on their history and the degree to which said letter resembles a somewhat unbiased truth' (and of course it's biased to a degree, focusing on the justifiable stuff - after all it's a reaction to rationalising the complete abandonment of their people to turkey and syria by suggesting they are just terrorists) - but that's not what you did, you simply dismissed it as 'terrorist organisation propaganda', as if it was some IS recruitment video...

also, while you keep reiterating their 'violent past', you also keep ignoring the fact that their violence was a REACTION to decades of systematic injustices, including thousands of killings, political disenfranchisement and expropriation by the turkish state - and you can't tell me that your history knowledge is THAT flawed...

Note the word "systematically".




and we're back to square one.

sidenote: why do discussions with liberals always end in smug calls to "educate yourself"?



Again, as I said right in the beginning: I consider the fact that the Kurdish people dont have their own state an injustice of history, I am sympathetic to their cause, and I do consider the things the Turks did to them worse than what the Kurds or the PKK did in retaliation. None of this, however, can be an excuse for the violence and crimes the PKK has committed.