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Dragon_Reborn
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Mar 6 2008 12:32am
I feel I need to make this topic, because I don't feel I have gotten enough respone on the guide(s) I have made regarding this topic.
So please make a vote here. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but I do this for the enlightenment of all ls community, not for any personal gain or to flame anybody.

Previous guides:
The How To Calculate Damage Guide -> Mystery About Strength And Ee Uncovered
Time To Learn This! -> How To Calculate Strength



In this topic, I see a guy advertising his hc axe with 36 str, as roughly equivalent to a 35ee axe. That's not true.

With my calculations, that axe is equal to a 24ee axe on a fighter with base strength. If that fighter has strength on his charm or his armor, that 36str axe is even worse than a 24ee axe. This may seem like small differences, but it actually a difference!

( base ee + actual ee ) * ( 100 + current strength + strength from item) / ( 100 + current strength ) = ( base ee + actual ee )
( 100 + 0 ) * ( 100 + 50 + 36 ) / (100 + 50 ) = 100 * 186 / 150 = 124 = 100 + 24 (answer is 24 ee)

Did I test this?
Actually to prove my point, I went on the market place and I bought a lvl 5 staff, with 36 ee, and a lvl 5 staff without ee and no strength (but i have got a 36strength charm to test with)

The 36 ee staff has this damage, with 50 strength (base): 23-63
The 0 ee staff has this damage, with 86 strength (+36 from item): 21-57

My point? If 36 strength is about 36 ee, than the 0ee staff with 36 strength from item, would be the same damage as the 36 ee staff.
But it is not!

The base damage of the staff (with 50 strength) is: 17-46
If I divide the damage of the 0ee staff / +36 strength, with the 0ee staff while it does not have +36 strength, I will get the effective ee.

57/46 = 1.239 ~ 24 ee!!

So, yes, my calculations are indeed correct!







Do you now see that 1str is not equal to 1 ee?

Please read carefully, and you may want to read my guide(s) as well, if you haven't allready.
Leave a vote in the poll, and just accept this. 1 STR IS NOT 0.95 EE

Also, Please leave comments. People need to learn this.
The higher the ee on your weapon, the more you benefit from strength. The less the ee on you weapon, the less you benefit from strength

Also, please sticky this if possible


This post was edited by Dragon_Reborn on Mar 6 2008 12:36am
GhettoFied
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Mar 6 2008 01:37am
thx I found this interesting.. wink.gif
Dragon_Reborn
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Mar 6 2008 02:37am
Quote (GhettoFied @ Thu, 6 Mar 2008, 08:37)
thx I found this interesting.. wink.gif


Thanks for your comment smile.gif


If you vote that I am wrong above, I would have you state why you think so in this post, and/or your results showing that I'm wrong.
But I'm guessing there are somebody who will vote that this is wrong just to vote it


Keep comments/criticism coming. Would like to hear from more of the experienced slashers here.
Ulizeus
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Mar 6 2008 02:57am
Cant vote this til I get the pair of weps, one with xx% EE and the other with yy str, where xx is almost equal to yy, why if it doesnt add the in same ammount if u get it from armor or charm ( I mean the str only), ur calcs are good to me right now tongue.gif
Dragon_Reborn
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Mar 6 2008 03:14am
Quote (Ulizeus @ Thu, 6 Mar 2008, 09:57)
Cant vote this til I get the pair of weps, one with xx% EE and the other with yy str, where xx is almost equal to yy, why if it doesnt add the in same ammount if u get it from armor or charm ( I mean the str only), ur calcs are good to me right now tongue.gif


I'm sure it is the same wether your strength is points you have invested from lvl-ups, or if it's on weapon, charm or armor.

The damage of the weapon is like this:
base damage * enhanced effect * strength

There must be some hidden factor, like you have to add this (haven't looked to much into that, so this is just speculation):
base damage * ( 1 + ee/100 ) * ( 1 + str/100 ) * 0.95

If you imagine a cube were all the sides in the cube will affect the volume of the cube, and the three different sides are
s1: strength
s2: enhanced effect
s3: base damage (affected by tierlevel)

To get the biggest volume (damage) possible you want to increase the shortest (weakest) side.

If you can find two weapons like that and test it for yourself I would love if you came back and told us your results, and vote ! smile.gif


Of course my reasoning may not be 100% correct, but at least I get correct answers with my strength part. To find out how much your damage will increase by adding any amount of strength, take 100+xx (xx, what str you have after adding strength) and divide by 100+yy (yy, what str you have before adding strength), and you will get a 1.xxxx which is a number you must multiply with your current damage.

example. I have 50 strength, and want to add 60 strength. How much do my damage increase?
100+110 / 100+50 = 210/150 = 1.4
My damage will increase 1.4 times, or 40%

edit: how much do those 40% damage increase correspond to in ee?
that depends on ee of course.
# If ee is zero, 40% damage increase only increase base damage by 40% = 40 ee increase
# If ee is 100, 40% damage increase increases base damage and 100%ee, so that is 200*1.4 = 280 = 80 ee increase
# If ee is 200, 40% damage increase increases base damage and 200%ee, so that is 300*1.4 = 320 = 120 ee increase


In that last case, those 60strength counted as 120 ee, while in the first case, only 40 ee.

Therefore, strength is more effective while ee is allready high, and vice versa

This post was edited by Dragon_Reborn on Mar 6 2008 03:26am
FloRin
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Mar 6 2008 05:50am
Yes Sir I Learn smile.gif
Gieb Free Your Super Club? ^^ drool.gif hail.gif
ragnaroks
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Mar 6 2008 06:40am
Quote (Dragon_Reborn @ Thu, 6 Mar 2008, 10:14)
example. I have 50 strength, and want to add 60 strength. How much do my damage increase?
100+110 / 100+50 = 210/150 = 1.4
My damage will increase 1.4 times, or 40%

edit: how much do those 40% damage increase correspond to in ee?
that depends on ee of course.
# If ee is zero, 40% damage increase only increase base damage by 40% = 40 ee increase
# If ee is 100, 40% damage increase increases base damage and 100%ee, so that is 200*1.4 = 280 = 80 ee increase
# If ee is 200, 40% damage increase increases base damage and 200%ee, so that is 300*1.4 = 320 = 120 ee increase


In that last case, those 60strength counted as 120 ee, while in the first case, only 40 ee.

Therefore, strength is more effective while ee is allready high, and vice versa


Ever heard of the perm link? It shows the real damage of the weapon/armor/charm/ (Formula: Base damage * EE)

Case 1:
EE is zero, let's say 100 base damage (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 40 damage increase, 40% ee increase overall (40:100))

Case2:
EE is 100, base damage of weapon is 100 damage, total damage of 200 (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 80 damage increase, 80 damage increase equals 40% of the perm link damage(80:200)

Case 3:
EE is 200, base damage of weapon is 100 damage, total damage of 300 (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 120 damage increase, 120 damage increase equals 40% of the perm link damage(120:300)



Anyways, this guide is partially right, indeed the more str and ee gives you have, it gives slightly more EE% from the perm link damage, the EE% per strenght is around 0.90-0.98% for most of the users on jsp. Most chars has around 30-90 str around here, not many players sacrafice his base stats and gear for pure str, most players will have around that str.

I might be wrong but the last part I wrote is without a doubt correct. (Part that begins with "Anyways, this guide is" ..... and ending with "have around that str.")


Edit: Most people here don't want to read a wall of text to learn how str works, most people are statisfied with the term average. (EG. Avg increase per vit/str/int is XX.XX, even though it might be slighly incorrect, people tend to be statisfied with that) icon_pointr.gif Personal opinion and experience with LS laugh.gif

Edit2: paparick hand.gif

This post was edited by ragnaroks on Mar 6 2008 06:56am
Paparick
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Mar 6 2008 06:55am
i have never felt the need to add str to my stat points -- i am a confirmed dexer

EDIT: ragnaroks hand.gif

This post was edited by paparick on Mar 6 2008 06:59am
Dragon_Reborn
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Mar 6 2008 06:56am
Edit: Most people here don't want to read a wall of text to learn how str works, most people are statisfied with the term average. (EG. Avg increase per vit/str/int is XX.XX)

That is what I'm trying to tell you guys. There is not any average ee increase when it comes to strength.

As you said yourself in all three cases, the overall increase of the perm link is 40%
That does not mean that the ee% increase is 40 in all cases. It is indeed 40ee, 80ee, 120ee. So strength has no average increase in ee, as in case 1, each point gives 2/3 ee, case 2: 1 1/3 ee, case 3: 2 ee per point.

Of course I have heard of the perm link damage, and that is the base damage and ee added on top of that.

You say:

Case 1:
EE is zero, let's say 100 base damage (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 40 damage increase, 40% ee increase overall (100:40)
= 40 damage increase, which would take 40 ee on the weapon

Case2:
EE is 100, base damage of weapon is 100 damage, total damage of 200 (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 80 damage increase, 80 damage increase equals 40% of the perm link damage(200:80)
= 80 damage increase, which would take 80 ee extra ee (180ee) on the weapon

Case 3:
EE is 200, base damage of weapon is 100 damage, total damage of 300 (perm link damage), +40% dmg increase = 120 damage increase, 120 damage increase equals 40% of the perm link damage(300:120)
= 120 damage increase, which would take 120 ee extra (320 ee, instead of 200 ee) on the weapon.

therefore in the respective cases, ee increase is 40, 80, 120.

That is no
Quote
slightly more EE% from the perm link damage
, nor the
Quote
EE% per strenght is around 0.90-0.98% for most of the users on jsp.


From adding 60 strength on your 50 base str fighter, you can in practice add 120 ee on your mq weapon. That is a big difference, from believing those 60 strength adds
Quote
on average 55 strength


So I must say, I believe you are wrong about that part that begins with anyways,...


Quote (paparick @ Thu, 6 Mar 2008, 13:55)
i have never felt the need to add str to my stat points -- i am a confirmed dexer


For all I know this may have happened since paul made v2. Dex is good and reliable, but wouldn't you like increasing your overall damage with 40%? That makes you kill 40% faster, if you somehow could keep your current dexterity rating. To quote natester:

Quote (natester17 @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008, 21:56)
Awesome Job !! I have known about the str / ee thing for sometime now , but it is really nice to see it explained in detail . This club of mine surpasses any other weapon I have ever used , I guess you know why now ! ohmy.gif

Mystical darkwood club
Level Req: 40
Damage: 85 to 385
+151% Enhanced Effect
+46 Strength
+26 Dexterity


banana.gif



Also I would like to add that my current build was superduper effective. no regen from lvl 50-71, effective playtime about 2 hours

lvl 50 club 234 ee
101 strength
144 dex
14 lifesteal

This post was edited by Dragon_Reborn on Mar 6 2008 07:00am
ragnaroks
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Mar 6 2008 06:58am
Go ask Paul this part:
"From adding 60 strength on your 50 base str fighter, you can in practice add 120 ee on your mq weapon. That is a big difference, from believing those 60 strength adds"

Impossible, if it was true, loads of people would do it, it increases 120 DAMAGE, thats XX% van of the perm link damage.

Going back to work, might discuss this later, just ask Paul to confirm it. tongue.gif (Don't send him a wall of text)
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