Quote (Sixers @ Aug 19 2019 09:28am)

You're messing with me, right? This is a troll attempt?

Jordan only had a higher raw FG% because he barely took any threes, meanwhile Harden takes 10+ threes per game. Hence why I used a far more accurate stat, which is True Shooting % and eFG% to account for all of this lol.

"In basketball, true shooting percentage is an APBRmetrics statistic that measures a player's efficiency at shooting the ball.[1] It is intended to more accurately calculate a player's shooting than field goal percentage, free throw percentage, and three-point field goal percentage taken individually. Two- and three-point field goals and free throws are all considered in its calculation."

"In basketball, effective field goal percentage (abbreviated eFG%) is a statistic that adjusts field goal percentage to account for the fact that three-point field goals count for three points while field goals only count for two points. [1] Its goal is to show what field goal percentage a two-point shooter would have to shoot at to match the output of a player who also shoots three-pointers."

Check the numbers like I said, Harden beats Jordan (by quite a bit) in both TS% and eFG%. Harden scores just as much, scoring more points per shot, at a higher efficiency, while also distributing the ball better. All facts.


Also, the whole "Jordan played in a defensive minded league" is a fucking joke. The hype about defense back in the day is total BS. Yes, there were some things done differently (some easier and some harder) but to act like Harden couldn't smoke guys back then just like he is now is comical. For one, slow footed big men had a place in the league then. Now, if you don't have incredible foot speed, reaction time and the ability to play above the rim you're probably not going to succeed much unless you're ultra-talented elsewhere as well (i.e. Jokic). Guys adapt, saying Harden wouldn't survive then is like saying Jordan wouldn't survive in todays league because he wasn't a very good outside shooter.

Watch this video (one of the best basketball videos on the internet), or countless other videos. Much like the Jordan brand itself now (which makes people think Jordan is untouchable) the NBA back then wasn't so difficult like people make you to believe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydOUbQqYb30

Quote (Sixers @ Aug 19 2019 10:28am)

You're messing with me, right? This is a troll attempt?

Jordan only had a higher raw FG% because he barely took any threes, meanwhile Harden takes 10+ threes per game. Hence why I used a far more accurate stat, which is True Shooting % and eFG% to account for all of this lol.

"In basketball, true shooting percentage is an APBRmetrics statistic that measures a player's efficiency at shooting the ball.[1] It is intended to more accurately calculate a player's shooting than field goal percentage, free throw percentage, and three-point field goal percentage taken individually. Two- and three-point field goals and free throws are all considered in its calculation."

"In basketball, effective field goal percentage (abbreviated eFG%) is a statistic that adjusts field goal percentage to account for the fact that three-point field goals count for three points while field goals only count for two points. [1] Its goal is to show what field goal percentage a two-point shooter would have to shoot at to match the output of a player who also shoots three-pointers."

Check the numbers like I said, Harden beats Jordan (by quite a bit) in both TS% and eFG%. Harden scores just as much, scoring more points per shot, at a higher efficiency, while also distributing the ball better. All facts.


Also, the whole "Jordan played in a defensive minded league" is a fucking joke. The hype about defense back in the day is total BS. Yes, there were some things done differently (some easier and some harder) but to act like Harden couldn't smoke guys back then just like he is now is comical. For one, slow footed big men had a place in the league then. Now, if you don't have incredible foot speed, reaction time and the ability to play above the rim you're probably not going to succeed much unless you're ultra-talented elsewhere as well (i.e. Jokic). Guys adapt, saying Harden wouldn't survive then is like saying Jordan wouldn't survive in todays league because he wasn't a very good outside shooter.

Watch this video (one of the best basketball videos on the internet), or countless other videos. Much like the Jordan brand itself now (which makes people think Jordan is untouchable) the NBA back then wasn't so difficult like people make you to believe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydOUbQqYb30

Quote (Waifu @ Aug 19 2019 12:19pm)

why is harden so low in efg% compared to players in his own era? Harden was only 55th this year, Jordan was often in the top 20. He isnt a better scorer, he just has the advantage of better analytics.

Quote

FG% is a measure of what percentage of your shots from the field go in, and gives us a first-pass proxy for how efficiently someone scores (where efficiency is scoring more points per possession).

eFG% improves on it by factoring in threes to reflect the fact that not all shots are worth the same amount of points, and thus gives a better measure of efficiency.

TS% improves on it again by factoring in that there are other ways to score than from the field (ie FTs), and that they can use up possessions without counting as a FGA, and adjusts the denominator accordingly, again giving an even better measure of efficiency.

Quote (Sixers @ Aug 19 2019 12:26pm)

eFG% doesn't factor free throws, which is why it's a lot less valid in this argument. True Shooting percentage is a much better indicator, however you'll notice that Harden's eFG% is MUCh higher than his raw FG% (because he shoots so many threes) compared to Jordan who's eFG% was similar to his raw FG%. Harden's difference makes it all the more impressive because it shows how impactful his three point shooting is.

"eFG% is an effective FG% – it’s right in the name. JJ Redick shooting a 115% eFG% for a night means his shooting had the same effect as if he’d shot 115% on all twos.
It’s not a measure of what percentage of his shots he made or anything like that, it’s a measure of the effect of those shots – and the effect of taking shots when you include threes can be greater than the effect of shooting 100% on twos.

TS% is the same thing only (rightly) factoring in free throws and using (an estimate of) possessions as the denominator."


Harden relies a lot on the free throw line (like Jordan did for a few seasons when he averaged MORE free throws than Harden does). He's able to work a defense and draw fouls at a high rate, because he's so difficult to guard (and yes he sells the occasional foul with a flop).

Quote (Waifu @ Aug 19 2019 09:46am)

harden was 18th last year, 16th the year before, 15th the year before that. this year he wasnt even top 20.

4 year span for Jordan he was 14,13,6, 13.

All you are saying is that your ts/efg are higher when you shoot 3 pointers at, what is now, a league average rate.

Why not make this argument for curry, instead of a far weaker scorer in harden?

Quote (Waifu @ Aug 19 2019 12:46pm)

harden was 18th last year, 16th the year before, 15th the year before that. this year he wasnt even top 20.

4 year span for Jordan he was 14,13,6, 13.

All you are saying is that your ts/efg are higher when you shoot 3 pointers at, what is now, a league average rate.

Why not make this argument for curry, instead of a far weaker scorer in harden?

Quote (Sixers @ Aug 19 2019 01:06pm)

eFg% doesn't factor free throws which is a HUGE part of the game....especially when you're talking about the guy that LEADS THE NBA in free throws attempted/made lol. Hence why i said it's a flawed/inaccurate stat when comparing it to the rest of the league (still better than Jordan's).

This season Harden led all guards in PPS (Points Per Shot) at 1.48. He led all guards last season as well at 1.51 PPS.

Harden also led the NBA in three pointers attempted, which is naturally going to decrease his overall raw FG% since the majority of his shot attempts are from 3pt.


The reason Harden had a better season than Curry (and Harden having one of the best offensive seasons in NBA history - some argue THE best) comes down to free throws as well. Harden gets to the line a HELL of a lot more than Curry, he gets points at the line just like great players have done throughout history averaging double digit free throw attempts. He knows how to read the defense and put himself in position to get the call, people cry about it but that's basketball 101 and guys have been doing it for many years. Getting to the line is an art and not every player has that ability, nor do they garner the respect to be fouled because defenses may already know how to defend you without fouling.

No guard in NBA history has scored as much as Harden, as efficiently as Harden......period.

Quote (Waifu @ Aug 19 2019 01:44pm)

curry 2015-2016 was a better season and it isnt close.

Quote (Sixers @ Aug 19 2019 02:39pm)

We're still talking about strictly as a scorer, right?

That's a good case, they both produced almost identical points per shot attempt...right around 1.47/1.48 for both of them. Although Curry's shooting numbers that season were insane, he still got to the free throw line less than half as much as Harden did this past season which is where Harden ate well.

Also, Harden averaged 36.1 PPG and Curry averaged 30.1 PPG. Quite a difference there, although Curry does win out on the efficiency end in terms of shooting numbers (TS%/eFg%) yet Harden scored just as well per shot attempt because he got to the line so much more.


Not sure how this got into a Harden vs Curry thread though, the statement was about Harden vs Jordan lol.

Also, before someone tries to bring up Kobe (lol). Harden over the past 5 seasons averages far better numbers than Kobe's MVP season. So don't even bother.