Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Oh right, I didn't post the reference, here you go:
https://humblesmith.***/2013/10/16/is-matthews-use-of-jeremiah-31-a-fulfillment-of-prophecy/Let me make one thing perfectly clear, you are not disagreeing with me by any means. You are disagreeing with the sources that I went to find. I guess you'll just have to wait for the next tragedy to occur so you will see what will happen. You are stuck in this angle about Matthew's term of the word 'fulfill'. I'm not responsible for how you react when you receive the word of God. Here's a plot twist: I'm not having bacon and eggs for breakfast tomorrow, I'm having cereal. Once again I merely quote the sources. You are disagreeing with them and not with me.
Well I will explain it to you: When one claims that a prophecy has been fulfilled, that means that an event has come to pass which was foretold. That is the meaning. If you cannot agree to that, then we can leave Matthew 2:17-18 because then we will never agree. I have searched the entire web for a satisfactory answer on this issue and I have read walls of texts written by apologetics, but there is simply no good explanation. Why? Because Matthew made a mistake. Period. You can insist on the inerrancy of the New Testament, but do not tell me that I disagree with G-d if I point out to you things that are at the very first glance, obvious errors and mistakes, facts that any unbiased mind clearly can see.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Yet the Magi were not a part of Israel. They probably didn't have all the scripture at their grasp. All they did was follow the star to where Jesus was born. Think of it like a sign on the highway as opposed to predicting the future. Once again I posted my source, take it up with them.
No they didn't. The star lead them to Jesus and nothing more. You say that the stars were not to serve as signs to mark sacred times but Genesis 1:14 says they do. (I use the NIV version). It's your word against God's. I wonder whose word has more weight?
Oh a loophole I guess? You know so G-d was talking to the wise men, by showing them a star as a sign on the highway? He declared what would be the biggest event in the history of the world, by a star? Take off your Jesus glasses for just a brief moment and you can see that the text suggests that these wise men had seen a star in the east and interpreted it as a
sign of the what-would-have-been at least one of the greatest events in history. These wise men apparently knew very well that Jesus would come, yet these wise men had not written it down earlier.
By the way I can tell you that NIV is a false translation. It is a very bad translation and it is not true to the word, you can check it up if you like. Most fundamental hardcore baptists uses the King James version, which is more reliable but even that translation is not always true to the original. So always try to check the original translation.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Yes Israel was considered God's son but a failed God's son. Same with Adam, he is a failed God's son because he and Israel fell into sin. That is why in John 3:16 it says that God sent his one and only son into the world.
Was? G-d promised Israel to never give them up, that he would always be their G-d. The covenant was eternal, do you understand the word "eternal"? Adam was never called the son of G-d.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
You can either believe the sources or you can not believe. That's on you and not on me. I for one can definitely see the connection between the Old Testament and New Testament. Any questions I ever had were all answered satisfactorily.
What do you mean by that? That I should "believe" the sources? I see what they are writing, I understand their point, but I utterly reject it on the ground of absurdity. All the examples I gave you of errors have I looked up several times, so as to see the apologetic response, because I know that sometimes there can be a good answer to things that appear to be erroneous. And of course there is a "connection" to the Old Testament but it falls flat because of the countless contradictions and errors and misquotations. Can you honestly say that you do not have the slightest understanding for my perspective? Since these things are soooo clear to you, I must seem like a hopeless idiot to you.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Yes it is. I would normally say "Don't believe me?" but since I was merely quoting the sources you have an issue with what they have written and not with me.
You have a very weird way of discussing something I must say. If you post quotes and sources to strengthen your points, I of course assume that you agree with your sources.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Simply put, Matthew 1 goes through Joseph's genealogy while Luke goes through Mary's Genealogy.
No! That is a lie, and it tells me that you have not even checked your own sources. Both accounts, both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, are referring to Joseph's genealogy. I will quote them for you:
Quote
Matthew 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Quote
Luke 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.
19 But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,
20 Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
One Christian apologetic comes up with an explanation and then writes a lengthy text about it, and the Christians do not even bother, they blindly follow. Both genealogies clearly talk about Joseph, where do you even see Mary in the text? The name Mary DOES NOT EVEN OCCUR ONCE in Luke chapter 3. How you can get it to be Mary's genealogy is beyond me. And tribal lines were always patrilineal (=after the father). Believe me there is no explanation for this; it has been a controversy from without and within the Church since its beginning, and it was a constant embarassment to the Church throughout the ages. Read for yourself - do not accept blindly what others say because I too, read the "solution" by the defenders of inerrancy and the explanation they give is nothing but absurd, it is not sufficient.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
That is simply all I put.
Explain to me how Luke 3 is referring to Mary's genealogy when her name does not occur even once in the whole chapter. Explain to me why it says "Joseph, which was the father of Heli" and how that can be made harmonious with Matthew's "And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary". The contradiction is so obvious and if you cannot see it - you willfully blind yourself to the truth.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
Since my go to site is the gotquestions site, perhaps you could go to that site and lay it all out for them so they can explain it to you. Those answers make perfect sense to me. If they don't make sense to you then you should keep on searching until they do. That is, unless you are willing to wait for me to pass these questions on to my Pastor on Sunday?
I have read a lot from gotquestions site and they lie, twist, and distort the Scriptures to a very great extent. Please read for yourself, check multiple sources, do not believe everything you read and hear.
Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2018 01:56pm)
For now, I'll keep on worshiping Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior in accordance with the scriptures.
I have nothing against you doing that, and you could still believe in your savior even if the New Testament did not exist. I am not trying to win you over to Judaism or Noahism or whatever, I am just simply telling you that the New Testament is full of errors, and that you cannot quote it as a reliable source as the inerrant word of G-d.
This post was edited by Tjo on May 29 2018 08:33am
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