I like to think that I'm pretty decent on generating hypotheticals, this thread included. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think people should just own that then, as the child/reproduction argument is very limp. People should just feel more comfortable saying that they view gay people, relationships, and families as inferior, imo.

God doesn't make people gay. The bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Like every other sin in life, it's a choice.

Leviticus 18:22 ~ You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 ~ If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination

Romans 1:27 ~ Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor men who practice homosexuality will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 7:2 - But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

The original leviticus translation was man with boy in both verses and was trying to crack down on rampant pedophilia at the time.

Homosexuality is a sin and leads to death and destruction. For thousands of years, marriage has been a religious covenant formed between a man and woman before God. Secularists devalued actual marriage with a form of their own “marriage”, which lead to incredibly high divorce rates and them deciding homosexuals can be “married”—but God does not recognize these unions and neither do His people.
No child should be deprived of a functional family with a mother and father. Homosexual parenting is child abuse and we have seen the slippery slope their death and destruction cause with men “identifying” as women trying to breastfeed infants.
Only God makes marriages and families, anything else is a counterfeit/lie that is doomed to destruction and death.

so what say you of the literal thousands upon thousands of happy families that include a gay married couple?

the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of children who grew up with someone not straight leading the way for them who ended up just fine?

didn't happen?

Didn't happen.

This post was edited by g0spel on Apr 25 2024 08:44pm

I am making a reproduction argument, though. Family structure is a means to an end, it's not good or bad in and of itself. If promoting traditional family units results in a larger number of stable families and more children, it's successful policy. If it doesn't, it isn't. I think we've seen over the past few years a very large number of "pro-fertility" policies throughout the developed world that haven't amounted to much at all, so clearly failure abounds.

But I'm understanding your argument around reproduction as different than how many people who use a reproduction argument use it. Meaning, they have a very reductive argument that isn't consistent with itself usually (which is where my examples in the OP come in).

What I don't understand with your position though is that if it is about promoting family stability, children, and increased quality of life and development for those children, then why not extend marriage legality to gay parents who have / are planning to have children? I think you'd still be opposed to this, so there's something about the fact that it's two men or two women v. one man and one woman, that seems critically important to you. And so, again, this is where I think people just view gay people as inferior and should just say that.

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Apr 25 2024 09:37pm

The premise of your argument seems questionable.

First, data from various countries where gay marriage has been legal for a sufficiently long time to get meaningful statistics quite comprehensively shows that the divorce rate among same-sex couples is lower than, or at most as high as, that of same-sex couples. See sources below. (Interestingly, some studies show lesbians to have a multiple times higher divorce rate than gay men.)
So "conventional" quite clearly doesn't correlate with "stable".

Second, the sexual orientation of adults is well-developed and stable in the overwhelming majority of cases. Promoting gay marriage in a sane, non-zealous way does not turn additional people gay and thus doesn't reduce the pool of straight couples (who can be expected to have more children on average due to not depending on surrogacy or adoption). And the institution of marriage being open to gay people doesn't take away from straight couples or reduce the attractiveness of marriage to them, so the number of straight couples who decide to get married shouldn't be impacted by the legality of gay marriage, either.


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https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13524-019-00847-6
"After 15 years of follow-up, approximately 30% of male same-sex marriages and opposite-sex marriages ended in divorce, and 40% of female same-sex marriages ended that way."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/03631990221122966
"divorce rates 20 years post-marriage were 5% lower for male-male marriages compared to male-female marriages and were 29% higher for female-female marriages vs female-male marriages"

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 26 2024 12:51am