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May 7 2024 04:59am
Quote (Djunior @ 6 May 2024 13:29)
So you understand that NATO expansion caused all these geo-political tensions, seems like the map I posted helped.

You still don't seem to understand that NATO expanded eastwards because all these eastern european, former soviet countries - who were sovereign nations at the time - couldn't wait to join NATO out of their own volition.

It's not like these countries were indifferent between aligning westwards vs eastwards and then evil NATO came along and allured them with the promise of lavish gifts and funding or anything like that. For example, Poland had been a NATO member for 5 years before it joined the EU. The reality is that these countries had experienced first-hand what life under the Russian yoke feels like and collectively went "hell no, NEVER again!!"



Quote (Djunior @ 7 May 2024 09:20)
The fact remains that Crimea was given to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954 to celebrate 300 years of relations which is why so many Russians still live there and the Russians have their naval base in Sevastopol. Anyone with a brain would realize the Russians are not going to hand Crimea over to NATO

Why do you keep harping on about Crimea? Crimea is the place in Ukraine with the highest share of Russians, it is the place with the highest strategic, historic and symbolic importance to the Russians, it is the one place Russia could annex without notable pushback from the population. And guess what: NATO/the West let them get away with it without punishment or resistance. Heck, aside from a handful of extremely softball, symbolic sanctions which didn't amount to much, we let Russia get away with the annexation of large swaths of the Donbass, too.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 7 2024 05:00am
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May 7 2024 06:29am
Quote (babun1024 @ 7 May 2024 16:41)
You guys talk about the past too much. The war has already broken out. Fast forward to the present day, Macron and Brits supplied Ukraine with long range missiles to hit targets within Russia. There is apparently a plan to hit Crimea on may, 9th. Russia is threatening with tactical nukes. Nato is considering to send troops to Ukraine if they keep losing ground..

WW3 at the doors, just missing the assault on Taiwan.


Taiwan will be lit. And I haven't found crap for the past few days to post on your thread. :P
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May 7 2024 06:51am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 06:59am)
You still don't seem to understand that NATO expanded eastwards because all these eastern european, former soviet countries - who were sovereign nations at the time - couldn't wait to join NATO out of their own volition.

It's not like these countries were indifferent between aligning westwards vs eastwards and then evil NATO came along and allured them with the promise of lavish gifts and funding or anything like that. For example, Poland had been a NATO member for 5 years before it joined the EU. The reality is that these countries had experienced first-hand what life under the Russian yoke feels like and collectively went "hell no, NEVER again!!"



This isn't entirely true lol. EU/NATO membership and all of its investments, loans, etc. are tied to each other. In public, it may not be said so, but any honest person understands this. A lot of these smaller Eastern European countries absolutely were enticed about the prospect of becoming wealthier, have more money, etc, especially at a time in the 90s when so much of the region was completely depressed. There's a lot of money for a small country to be made to have these rich foreigners build bases, host soldiers, invest in domestic infrastructure.
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May 7 2024 07:08am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 7 May 2024 14:51)
This isn't entirely true lol. EU/NATO membership and all of its investments, loans, etc. are tied to each other. In public, it may not be said so, but any honest person understands this. A lot of these smaller Eastern European countries absolutely were enticed about the prospect of becoming wealthier, have more money, etc, especially at a time in the 90s when so much of the region was completely depressed. There's a lot of money for a small country to be made to have these rich foreigners build bases, host soldiers, invest in domestic infrastructure.


This might be true for EU membership, but not for NATO. Poland, Czechia and Hungary joined NATO in 1999, but only became EU members five years later, in 2004. Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia joined NATO in 2004, became EU members in 2009.
Are you really gonna argue that the minor impact a few NATO bases would have on a country's overall economy was the deciding factor in them wanting to join NATO although they were actually agnostic between west and east alignment? Or could it be that the century of abuse these nations suffered at the hands of Moscow prompted them to get under NATO's protective umbrella asap? ;)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 7 2024 07:28am
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May 7 2024 07:13am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 09:08am)
This might be true for EU membership, but not for NATO. Poland, Czechia and Hungary joined NATO in 1999, but only became EU members five years later, in 2004. Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia joined NATO in 2004, became EU members in 2009.
Are you really gonna argue that the minor impact a few NATO bases would have on a country's overall economy was the deciding factor in them wanting to join NATO although they were actually agnostic between west and east alignment? Or could it be that the cenutry of abuse these nations suffered at the hands of Moscow prompted them to get under NATO's protective umbrella asap? ;)


I'm arguing that they are all tied, even if it's not publicly proclaimed. There are great financial benefits for some of these small, poorer countries to join NATO, just like with joining the EU. Countries in the 90s were joining NATO not because they were recollecting the centuries of abuse and were scared of Russia, when Russia was basically left for dead economically, they joined because the west won and was rich and it's good to join the winning side and have all this windfall investment come replace the misery.
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May 7 2024 07:18am
Quote (Santara @ May 7 2024 11:50am)

In the same sense that Americans have been manipulated by Russian troll farms. The troll farms didn't make Americans DO anything, but their influence is undeniable. Same in Ukraine. No one was MADE to protest the corruption inherent in the Ukrainian polity, but it helped.


RUSaid sent Americans a poll asking what kind of protests would be acceptable and high ranking Russian officials showed up in DC to rally protesters to dispose of a US president?


Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 12:59pm)
You still don't seem to understand that NATO expanded eastwards because all these eastern european, former soviet countries - who were sovereign nations at the time - couldn't wait to join NATO out of their own volition.

It's not like these countries were indifferent between aligning westwards vs eastwards and then evil NATO came along and allured them with the promise of lavish gifts and funding or anything like that. For example, Poland had been a NATO member for 5 years before it joined the EU. The reality is that these countries had experienced first-hand what life under the Russian yoke feels like and collectively went "hell no, NEVER again!!"


1) Let me remind you that those countries were occupied by the USSR because of WW2 and remained occupied because they were seen as a buffer zone. You know what the Germans did in the USSR during WW2 right. Your own countrymen are to blame for that situation.

2) Up to this day those countries receive MASSIVE aid from the EU are you not aware of this




Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 12:59pm)
Why do you keep harping on about Crimea? Crimea is the place in Ukraine with the highest share of Russians, it is the place with the highest strategic, historic and symbolic importance to the Russians, it is the one place Russia could annex without notable pushback from the population. And guess what: NATO/the West let them get away with it without punishment or resistance. Heck, aside from a handful of extremely softball, symbolic sanctions which didn't amount to much, we let Russia get away with the annexation of large swaths of the Donbass, too.


I posted the facts, Crimea was Russian until 1954 when it was given to Ukraine to celebrate good relations and NATO thought they'd get it handed to them on a silver platter. I don't know why mentioning this upsets you.

Another fact Russia was heavily sanctioned in 2014 this is at least the second time I remind you of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

A host of Western countries sanctioned Russia not only because of Crimea but because of the situation in Donbas as well. Get your facts strait lol

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May 7 2024 07:40am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 7 May 2024 15:13)
I'm arguing that they are all tied, even if it's not publicly proclaimed. There are great financial benefits for some of these small, poorer countries to join NATO, just like with joining the EU. Countries in the 90s were joining NATO not because they were recollecting the centuries of abuse and were scared of Russia, when Russia was basically left for dead economically, they joined because the west won and was rich and it's good to join the winning side and have all this windfall investment come replace the misery.

And this economic incentive is the reason why they joined the much less economically beneficial club (NATO) asap while it took a decade or more for them to join the EU and its much more lucrative funds?




Quote (Djunior @ 7 May 2024 15:18)
1) Let me remind you that those countries were occupied by the USSR because of WW2 and remained occupied because they were seen as a buffer zone. You know what the Germans did in the USSR during WW2 right. Your own countrymen are to blame for that situation.

So because the Germans did something bad, Russia is perpetually entitled to rule over these countries, is that what you're saying? Once again, the idea that these are sovereign nations with a right to choose their own destiny doesn't even cross your mind. Also note that the Russian Empire had been an aggressive, imperialist power going back to its Czarist days. They regularly invaded their neighbors long before WW2 or even the October Revolution, so this narrative that they only insisted on ruling over a buffer zone of unfree vassals after they got traumatized by the nazis is factually incorrect.


Quote
2) Up to this day those countries receive MASSIVE aid from the EU are you not aware of this
https://i.imgur.com/qn7biVB.jpg

I already drew the distinction between EU and NATO.


Quote
Another fact Russia was heavily sanctioned in 2014 this is at least the second time I remind you of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
A host of Western countries sanctioned Russia not only because of Crimea but because of the situation in Donbas as well. Get your facts strait lol

I already wrote from the very beginning that Russia did get sanctioned in 2014, never denied this. What I disagree with is the claim that these sanctions were "heavy", rather than softballs which didn't economically hurt Russia in a meaningful way.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 7 2024 07:40am
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May 7 2024 08:06am
Quote (Djunior @ May 7 2024 08:18am)
RUSaid sent Americans a poll asking what kind of protests would be acceptable and high ranking Russian officials showed up in DC to rally protesters to dispose of a US president?


The Internet Research Agency greatly promoted the campaign of Donald Trump. From the campaign's infancy.
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May 7 2024 08:20am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 03:40pm)
So because the Germans did something bad, Russia is perpetually entitled to rule over these countries, is that what you're saying? Once again, the idea that these are sovereign nations with a right to choose their own destiny doesn't even cross your mind. Also note that the Russian Empire had been an aggressive, imperialist power going back to its Czarist days. They regularly invaded their neighbors long before WW2 or even the October Revolution, so this narrative that they only insisted on ruling over a buffer zone of unfree vassals after they got traumatized by the nazis is factually incorrect.


That's not what I said. If I did, quote me lol

I merely said that those countries were occupied after WW2 which is a fact.

Another fact is that Germany aimed to wipe out the untermenschen so they could have lebensraum do you really find it strange the Russians wanted a buffer zone between them and the German orcs?


Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 03:40pm)
I already drew the distinction between EU and NATO.


Despite the facts presented you fail to acknowledge that EU membership promises MASSIVE financial benefits and you fail to acknowledge that MASSIVE financial benefits influence the people in said countries


Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 7 2024 03:40pm)
I already wrote from the very beginning that Russia did get sanctioned in 2014, never denied this. What I disagree with is the claim that these sanctions were "heavy", rather than softballs which didn't economically hurt Russia in a meaningful way.


If you checked the source you noticed that a bunch of countries sanctioned Russia and multiple rounds of sanctions were issued.

So according to you, sanctioning the financial sector, oil industry and "dual use goods" translates to softball sanctions? Or did you fail to check the source?

This is just part of the long list (quote from source I linked)

Quote
Third round: 2014–2021
2014
In response to the escalating War in Donbass, on 17 July 2014 the United States extended its transactions ban to two major Russian energy firms, Rosneft and Novatek, and to two banks, Gazprombank and Vnesheconombank.[42] United States also urged EU leaders to join the third wave[43] leading EU to start drafting European sanctions a day before.[44][45] On 25 July, the EU officially expanded its sanctions to an additional 15 individuals and 18 entities,[46] with an additional eight added on 30 July.[47] On 31 July 2014 the EU introduced the third round of sanctions which included an embargo on arms and related material, and embargo on dual-use goods and technology intended for military use or a military end user, a ban on imports of arms and related material, controls on export of equipment for the oil industry, and a restriction on the issuance of and trade in certain bonds, equity or similar financial instruments on a maturity greater than 90 days (In September 2014 lowered to 30 days)[48]

On 24 July 2014, Canada targeted Russian arms, energy and financial entities.[49] On 5 August 2014, Japan froze the assets of "individuals and groups supporting the separation of Crimea from Ukraine" and restrict imports from Crimea and froze funds for new projects in Russia in line with the policy of the EBRD.[50] On 8 August 2014, Australia announced that Australia is "working towards" tougher sanctions against Russia.[51][52]

On 12 August 2014, Norway adopted the tougher sanctions against Russia that were imposed by the European Union and the United States on 12 August 2014. The Norwegian foreign minister Børge Brende said that it would also impose restrictions similar to the EU's 1 August sanctions. Russian state-owned banks will be banned from taking long-term and mid-term loans, arms exports will be banned and supplies of equipment, technology and assistance to the Russian oil sector will be prohibited.[53]

On 14 August 2014, Switzerland expanded sanctions against Russia over its threat to Ukraine's sovereignty. Swiss government added 26 more Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians to the list.[54] The Swiss government said it is expanding measures to prevent the circumvention of sanctions relating to the situation in Ukraine to include the third round of sanctions imposed by the EU in July and also stated that five Russian banks will require authorisation to issue long-term financial instruments in Switzerland.[55] On 28 August 2014, Switzerland amended its sanctions to include the sanctions imposed by the EU in July.[55]

On 14 August 2014, Ukraine passed a law introducing Ukrainian sanctions against Russia.[56][57] The law includes 172 individuals and 65 entities in Russia and other countries for supporting and financing "terrorism" in Ukraine, though actual sanctions would need approval from Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council.

On 11 September 2014, US president Obama said that the United States would join the EU in imposing tougher sanctions on Russia's financial, energy and defence sectors.[58] On 12 September 2014, the United States imposed sanctions on Russia's largest bank (Sberbank), a major arms maker and arctic (Rostec), deepwater and shale exploration by its biggest oil companies (Gazprom, Gazprom Neft,[59][60][61] Lukoil, Surgutneftegas and Rosneft). Sberbank and Rostec will have limited ability to access the US debt markets. The sanction on the oil companies seek to ban co-operation with Russian oil firms on energy technology and services by companies including Exxon Mobil Corp. and BP Plc.[62]

On 24 September 2014, Japan banned the issue of securities by 5 Russian banks and also tightened restrictions on defence exports to Russia.[63]

On 3 October 2014, US vice president Joe Biden said that "It was America's leadership and the president of the United States insisting, ofttimes almost having to embarrass Europe to stand up and take economic hits to impose costs" and added that "And the results have been massive capital flight from Russia, a virtual freeze on foreign direct investment, a ruble at an all-time low against the dollar, and the Russian economy teetering on the brink of recession. We don't want Russia to collapse. We want Russia to succeed. But Putin has to make a choice. These asymmetrical advances on another country cannot be tolerated. The international system will collapse if they are."[64]

On 18 December 2014, the EU banned some investments in Crimea, halting support for Russian Black Sea oil and gas exploration and stopping European companies from purchasing real estate or companies in Crimea, or offering tourism services.[65] On 19 December 2014, US president Obama imposed sanctions on Russian-occupied Crimea by executive order prohibiting exports of US goods and services to the region.[66]



Quote (Santara @ May 7 2024 04:06pm)
The Internet Research Agency greatly promoted the campaign of Donald Trump. From the campaign's infancy.


Trump won because the Dem candidate was dogshit not because of Russians. Massive self own, lol

If the Russians could so easily pick their guy of choice to win the US elections they would do so every single time or wouldn't they. Not just in 2016. And not just in the US but everywhere.

Can't believe you parrot this nonsense

This post was edited by Djunior on May 7 2024 08:20am
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May 7 2024 10:05am
Quote (Santara @ May 7 2024 04:50am)
Puerto Rico voted to join the US as the 51st state.

If Crimea was autonomous under one Kyiv regime, why wouldn't they remain autonomous under the next?


Well they had plurality vote control over the one regime and the other was bombing them. During the abortive negotiations prior to the invasion the DPR/LPR definitely wanted to stay autonomous, though Crimea was already de facto annexed. Its just a choice they no longer had at that point, not just taken from them by Russia's little green men, the separatist regions wouldn't be able to withstand the western backed siege without them. They aren't the first conflict region to be in a tug of war between great powers like children squabbling over toys, and they had every reason to pick the side they aligned with and could protect them.
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