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BWConformity
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Jan 29 2019 04:19pm
Unfortunately our discussion topic in Ladder Slasher General got closed due to excessive off-topic posts. No matter, this is the correct place for our discussion (for few who care).


Here is the old, closed, topic--spam and all!
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=80525703&f=272


Since true values are not eplicitly stated anywhere, the topic of this discussion is determination of critical strike rates for melee weapons.

Let's keep this one clean please :)
izParagonzi
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Jan 29 2019 05:22pm
First off, can anyone confirm how we Identify a critical hit? Reason why I ask, it is because it has been stated that Power Shot and Armor Pierce can ALSO appear as RED text.

So here are some OLD testing information for you, I gave up on CS to test QD, gave up on that also because I had to restructure my method.

Critical Strike (+12) with Life Steal (11%) Test:

Level 50 longsword, +120% Enhanced Effect, +3 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2% Mind Numb
Level 45 plate mail, +16 Vitality, +38 Intelligence, +8 Life Regen, +2% Mind Numb
Level 50 earth +20% Enhanced Effect, +4 Strength, +12 Critical Strike, +1 to 1 Life per Attack, +11% Life Steal
Level 45 wild heal +107% Enhanced Effect

Conditions:
Guild Only solo / No Whistle or Enigmatic shrine / Re-make on trap door & Sneaky / add to Intelligence only / set easy 1 enabled / Welling (yes) / Salvation Only
I will try and count each CS hit check, but, this will not be 100% accurate due to lag spikes.

Code
Iz5 = Lvl 55 = Str 55 / Dex 34 / Int 45 / Vit 100... Gear Adds: Int 40 / Str 7 / Vit 16: = Total: Str 62 / Dex 34 / Int 85 / Vit 116

Lvl from/to : Time : Act (Att/Heal) : Damage (Min / Avg / Max) : Heal (Min / Avg / Max) : EP : CS : Well
55.00-55.38 : 0;05.21 : 0101 (085/016) : 050406 ( 73 / 593 / 2014) : 004331 (039 / 271 / 1091) : 01 : 16 :
55.38-58.29 : 0;34.25 : 0587 (520/067) : 314856 ( 41 / 605 / 1992) : 033980 (043 / 507 / 2162) : 00 : 95 :
58.29-59.25 : 0;17.05 : 0231 (178/053) : 116300 ( 00 / 653 / 2028) : 016060 (032 / 303 / 1709) : 00 : 34 :
59.25-59.25 : 0;02.45 : 0054 (054/000) : 033211 ( ?? / ??? / ????) : 000000 (000 / 000 / 0000) : 00 : 08 : 06
59.25-59.73 : 0;05.04 : 0127 (100/027) : 054549 ( 00 / 545 / 1710) : 010434 (047 / 386 / 1548) : 00 : 14 :
59.73-61.52 : 0;18.35 : 0455 (363/092) : 227669 ( 00 / 927 / 2030) : 030442 (034 / 331 / 2071) : 02 : 63 :
61.52-63.91 : 0;29.58 : 0597 (505/092) : 312660 ( 00 / 619 / 2028) : 041682 (046 / 543 / 1839) : 01 : 93 :
63.91-66.21 : 0;30.11 : 0683 (529/154) : 317920 ( 00 / 601 / 2018) : 061075 (030 / 397 / 2505) : 01 : 86 :
66.21-68.44 : 0;30.06 : 0694 (548/146) : 338174 ( 21 / 617 / 2034) : 064599 (033 / 442 / 2547) : 02 : 96 :
68.44-70.00 : 0;23.39 : 0523 (385/138) : 237321 ( 14 / 616 / 2022) : 055231 (035 / 400 / 2208) : 02 : 71 :


Code
Name : Class : Lvl from/to : Time : Act (Att/Heal) : Damage (Min / Avg / Max) : Heal (Min / Avg / Max) : EP : CS : Well
Iz5 : Paladin : 55.00-70.00 : 3;17.09 : 4052 (3267/785) : 2003066 ( 14 / 577 / 2034) : 317834 (034 / 358 / 2547) : 09 : 576 : 06
Iz5 : Paladin : Time has not been recorded exactly: Included around 30 minutes extra for cig & anime breaks


End Note: I will post individual reports for each character that I use and add the total to the second code format.

BWConformity
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Jan 30 2019 01:43am
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jan 29 2019 01:22pm)
First off, can anyone confirm how we Identify a critical hit? Reason why I ask, it is because it has been stated that Power Shot and Armor Pierce can ALSO appear as RED text.


Critical hits, and only critical hits, are identified in red text. Power shot and armor pierce appear in white. This was quite easy to test... I do believe that it was erroneously stated that non-crits could appear in red because of ambiguous wording in old patch notes from long ago... In any case... they were wrong.

Here are my results for pilot testing of sword and club crit chance based on stats. There is 1 crit strike on my lvl 55 club, so that might muddle the results slightly, but I think the overall effect speaks for itself. I've color coordinated the 3 stat compositions that I used so that replicates can be more easily seen:

Lagg Sword Crit Test
Constant conditions->
Paladin
Explore
No abilities
0 crit strike
0% armor pierce
0% powershot

Lvl 67 - 68
Str 119
Dex 52
Total stats: 171
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 9/100
Crit rate: 9%


Lvl 68 - 68
Str 119
Dex 125
Total stats: 244
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 21/100
Crit rate: 21%


Lvl 68 - 69
Str 221
Dex 34
Total stats: 255
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 6/100
Crit rate: 6%


Lvl 69 - 69
Str 119
Dex 52
Total stats: 171
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 10/100
Crit rate: 10%


Lvl 69 - 70
Str 221
Dex 34
Total stats: 255
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 7/100
Crit rate: 7%


Lvl 70 - 70
Str 119
Dex 125
Total stats: 244
Lvl 55 Sword
Crits/Hits: 19/100
Crit rate: 19%



Lagg Club Crit Test
Constant conditions->
Paladin
Explore
No abilities
1 crit strike
0% armor pierce
0% powershot

Lvl 70 - 71
Str 119
Dex 125
Total stats: 244
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 13/100
Crit rate: 13%


Lvl 71 - 71
Str 221
Dex 34
Total stats: 255
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 5/100
Crit rate: 5%


Lvl 71 - 72
Str 119
Dex 52
Total stats: 171
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 4/100
Crit rate: 4%


Lvl 72 - 72
Str 119
Dex 52
Total stats: 171
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 6/100
Crit rate: 6%


Lvl 72 - 73
Str 119
Dex 125
Total stats: 244
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 8/100
Crit rate: 8%


Lvl 73 - 73
Str 221
Dex 34
Total stats: 255
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 5/100
Crit rate: 5%


Lvl 73 - 74
Str 119
Dex 125
Total stats: 244
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 10/100
Crit rate: 10%


Lvl 74 - 74
Str 119
Dex 52
Total stats: 171
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 5/100
Crit rate: 5%


Lvl 74 - 75
Str 221
Dex 34
Total stats: 255
Lvl 55 Club
Crits/Hits: 2/100
Crit rate: 2%
izParagonzi
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Jan 30 2019 07:13am
Quote (BWConformity @ Jan 30 2019 08:43pm)
Critical hits, and only critical hits, are identified in red text. Power shot and armor pierce appear in white. This was quite easy to test... I do believe that it was erroneously stated that non-crits could appear in red because of ambiguous wording in old patch notes from long ago... In any case... they were wrong.


Thanks for info. I was asking as v1.19 states that Critical Hits are identified by an exclamation(!) mark, then 1.20 states that Critical Hits are identified by Red Text. There are no mention of the other mods (Armor Pierce & Power Shot) changing back to white in the portals (well, the ladder slasher page that is) because they don't go back far enough that I could see. Not doubting your conclusion based on how you would test it.

How are you doing your % chance in your posts? Am I to assume that 5/100 is 100 attacks and 5 of them appeared in Red text?
slushslush
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Jan 30 2019 07:22am
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jan 30 2019 08:13am)
Thanks for info. I was asking as v1.19 states that Critical Hits are identified by an exclamation(!) mark, then 1.20 states that Critical Hits are identified by Red Text. There are no mention of the other mods (Armor Pierce & Power Shot) changing back to white in the portals (well, the ladder slasher page that is) because they don't go back far enough that I could see. Not doubting your conclusion based on how you would test it.

How are you doing your % chance in your posts? Am I to assume that 5/100 is 100 attacks and 5 of them appeared in Red text?



I think you would be ok to assume rhat
BWConformity
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Jan 30 2019 07:46am
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jan 30 2019 03:13am)
Thanks for info. I was asking as v1.19 states that Critical Hits are identified by an exclamation(!) mark, then 1.20 states that Critical Hits are identified by Red Text. There are no mention of the other mods (Armor Pierce & Power Shot) changing back to white in the portals (well, the ladder slasher page that is) because they don't go back far enough that I could see. Not doubting your conclusion based on how you would test it.

How are you doing your % chance in your posts? Am I to assume that 5/100 is 100 attacks and 5 of them appeared in Red text?


My test was simple. I used an axe for 500 hits with 10 armor pierce and then for another 500 hits with 11 power shot on normal level 75 monsters. The axe was dealing roughly 450 to 525 damage after armor, and all red damage dealt was between 900 and 1200. If power shot or armor pierce were to proc without crit and be colored red, there would have been a red number lower than 900 because neither armor pierce on that low mob armor, nor power shot on axes can produce double damage in this scenario.

Quote (slushslush @ Jan 30 2019 03:22am)
I think you would be ok to assume rhat


And yes, your assumption is correct. I counted red numbers in the first 100 physical hits after switching gear to make that stat composition.
izParagonzi
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Jan 30 2019 08:40am
Quote (BWConformity @ Jan 31 2019 02:46am)
My test was simple. I used an axe for 500 hits with 10 armor pierce and then for another 500 hits with 11 power shot on normal level 75 monsters. The axe was dealing roughly 450 to 525 damage after armor, and all red damage dealt was between 900 and 1200. If power shot or armor pierce were to proc without crit and be colored red, there would have been a red number lower than 900 because neither armor pierce on that low mob armor, nor power shot on axes can produce double damage in this scenario.



And yes, your assumption is correct. I counted red numbers in the first 100 physical hits after switching gear to make that stat composition.


Nice to know. I will believe in your assessment, but, I do have some reservations until verified by actual source information.

Code
+ Critical Strike Increases your chance to perform a powerful attack.
+ % Armor Pierce Gives a % chance to ignore the target Defense for your attack. Lowered target defense will result in more damage dealt.
+ % Power Shot Gives a % chance that your melee attack will do the full damage amount listed on the weapon.


* More damage: This can be anything from 1% to 500% added calculation.
* 900-1200 damage: could also be the results or both Critical Strike and Armor Pierce combined
Meridius
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Jan 30 2019 12:26pm
crit strike do also always double the base damage
you can easily test that with ices/axes

only crits appear in red

e: from my testing 1 critstrike on gear with daggers is about 3-4dex when you go all dex with stats

Also I'd state that critstrike is the side mod which add the most overall damage and therefor the best mod to have besides main stats (dex/str/int)

This post was edited by Meridius on Jan 30 2019 12:27pm
BWConformity
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Jan 30 2019 01:02pm
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jan 30 2019 04:40am)
Nice to know. I will believe in your assessment, but, I do have some reservations until verified by actual source information.

Code
+ Critical Strike Increases your chance to perform a powerful attack.
+ % Armor Pierce Gives a % chance to ignore the target Defense for your attack. Lowered target defense will result in more damage dealt.
+ % Power Shot Gives a % chance that your melee attack will do the full damage amount listed on the weapon.


* More damage: This can be anything from 1% to 500% added calculation.
* 900-1200 damage: could also be the results or both Critical Strike and Armor Pierce combined


In a general sense you’re correct, but my assessment does not need to test the limits of power shot or armor pierce... it only needs to test whether those can appear in red text without a crit... and the answer is clearly no. Feel free to PM me about this one if you still don’t understand why. I think it’ll be distracting to continue to discuss that point in here.

Quote (Meridius @ Jan 30 2019 08:26am)
crit strike do also always double the base damage
you can easily test that with ices/axes

only crits appear in red

e: from my testing 1 critstrike on gear with daggers is about 3-4dex when you go all dex with stats

Also I'd state that critstrike is the side mod which add the most overall damage and therefor the best mod to have besides main stats (dex/str/int)


I agree with the edit statements for whistle climbing with very high end stat gear. I’ve always taken a more conservative valuation of crit strike (valuing it at 2.5 dex per point for daggers) since I’m usually not using high dex gear nor statting pure dex... but actually, I haven’t even begun to formally test crit strike in this topic.

I do know, Meridius, that you have done lots of testing with melee crit... I’m under the impression that it was with total damage dealt through a whistle climb instead of crit rate, but it could still be a good starting point to look at here if you don’t mind sharing :)
izParagonzi
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Jan 30 2019 06:33pm
Quote (Meridius @ Jan 31 2019 07:26am)
crit strike do also always double the base damage
you can easily test that with ices/axes

only crits appear in red

e: from my testing 1 critstrike on gear with daggers is about 3-4dex when you go all dex with stats

Also I'd state that critstrike is the side mod which add the most overall damage and therefor the best mod to have besides main stats (dex/str/int)


With your statement, that would indicate that my charm with +12 Critical Strike is equivalent to +36 - 48 Dexterity when using daggers / spears or around +24 - 36 when using Polearms / Staffs. The charm has 11% life steal so it would be good to use over a 40 Dex charm in your assessment, or would it?
________________________

EDIT: A question for both. What value will show if both Power Shot & Armor Pierce activates in the same Action? Does one of them cancel out the other, and if so, which one. Reason for question, take Power Shot + Critical Hit, it will still indicate red wouldn't it, but the value could be power shot?

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Jan 30 2019 07:01pm
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