change europe?
create europe?

what are you trying to ask and how is it related to the topic? you'll have to be a bit more specific, mate...

sounds like something right out of heinrich von goebbels' ancestor's (joseph) playbook.

Catalonia going wild because half populism, being rich because of Europe then suddently feel "robbed" by the rest of Spain...
Such a joke, and discrediting Europe, what about all the firms leaving Catalonia now ? It's a fail and half of a fake. It's bigotry too.

To be honest, those independentists have to be stopped at any cost

well that's a rather simplistic and radical approach but sure, there is some truth to your statement.

the economic part of their motivation shouldn't be underestimated ofc. they pay significantly more into the federal budget than they receive back, but then again that's true for particular regions (professions / ages / tax brackets...) in every country, and it's certainly true for countries within the EU as well.
and for spain as a whole and the EU, the separatist movement is certainly not economically beneficial.

however, that is not the point i'm making here. i think their historic and cultural heritage absolutely warrants a fair, realistic, and constitutional way to leave spain IF the majority of catalonians support it (which was very doubtful for a long time and might still be).
that's all i'm advocating for - not catalonian independence itself, but simply their RIGHT to have a constitutionally sanctioned referendum that lets them determine their own future. that was my stance on brexit as well btw: while i think a healthily involved UK would have made the EU stronger, and that their departure will be rather expensive for everyone (mostly for them ofc), i fully support their right to leave and also think they should definitely respect the outcome of their referendum.

don't make the mistake of the butthurt kids (who don't even pretend to care about the topic anymore and go straight to ad hominem) to assume what i consider best for myself is automatically what i support politically. i don't want catalonia to seperate at all. but i very much want them to have the opportunity to do that if they want to - that's a HUGE difference...

simply "stopping them at all cost" because it's "bigotry" (how?) and "discrediting europe" (what?!), basically because you don't like it, is just a shitty argument...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/20/italian-regions-go-to-the-polls-in-europes-latest-referendums-on-autonomy

referendum for more autonomy done right

It's a populist movement, or please list me what they want exactly... It's probably hilarious...
- Catalonia-ish language at school mandatory ?
- The right to have sex in subway ?
- Half of them want less taxes, while the others want communism ?
- Half of them want less immigration, while the others want more ?
- Many are just raged and want to put things on fire... Lmk if Catalonia WAS already independant they would do the same but for joining spain...

Rajoy has sent the Senate a document by which he asks for article 155 to be triggered. The senate will debate it next week and approve it on Friday, when it will finally come in to effect (it is guaranteed to be approved, since parties in favor of executing the article represent 82% of the Senate, with only far left Podemos and the nationalist/separatist parties of Catalonia and Euskadi opposing it).

Rajoy will use article 155 to fire the catalan government, appoint a transition government that will restore constitutional order in the region (this transition government is expected to mostly consist of independent technocrats and intellectuals, but this is still being debated), and then hold regional elections in no longer than 6 months.



Some interesting points here, because there is indeed a huge ideological division between the different factions that support independence. Now they are all united for one cause, but there's a huge difference in mentality between the ultra progressive antifa radicals in Barcelona, and the highly conservative farmers in the small villages where people have barely ever spoken spanish in their lives.

This divide is always seen in the elections... Barcelona almost always has leftist progressive mayors, while the catalan government has almost always been ruled by the right wing conservative catalan nationalist party CiU (this party stopped existing a few years ago when they embraced separatism... they are now PDeCat, a party that is part of the current separatist coalition ruling Catalonia), due to the votes from the people in the countryside giving the edge to conservatives.

This post was edited by zarkadon on Oct 21 2017 08:06am

450,000 in the street for independence

http://www.lapresse.ca/international/europe/201710/21/01-5140779-catalogne-450-000-manifestants-a-barcelone-pour-reclamer-lindependance.php

can't find english source yet

so this means more than 7 millions were not

No, today was "against the use of article 155". There have been many big demonstrations for independence, but this one wasn't about it.