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Feb 20 2024 07:53am
Quote (YeeHaw @ 20 Feb 2024 06:44)
You proved the point I am trying to make. You didn’t agree to it so you found a new job. Those who did agree to it stayed. Nothing illegal happened. No “wage theft” occurred.

To the bolded. You are in a literal sense their tool. You agree to exchange your time and calories for currency. That is just life you are a tool your employer uses to keep the business going. You can bargain to get a better deal and are free to opt leave at any time. You exercised this right, couldn’t reach the deal you felt was best for you, and found a better opportunity.

I am happy to being my work home with me because my employer pays extremely well and I sleep perfectly fine at night knowing if I continue working diligently I will be set for life.

Decisions you disagree with aren’t illegal or “wage theft” by any means. I am forbidden to discuss the price per foot of 2 3/8” 4,50# j55 btc welded tubing. Oh fucking well. I get paid for what I agreed to. If my employer forbid speaking on my pay rate and how it is broken down, oh well.

Idk dude I just straight up disagree with this “wage theft” scam. I believe it comes down to piss poor attitude towards the business that was established well before you came along demanding more than they deem you are worth.


Once again, respect is a two way street. Employers who respect that their life outside their regular schedule is their own, and refrain from making demands upon that personal time tend to have happy employees and high retention rates.

Employers who promise that "very little overtime will be required for this salaried position" then promptly require so much overtime that working as a burger flipper or cashier would pay just as much per hour tend to have massive turnover rates and eventually fail.

The business that respects their employees receives respect in return. The business that treats their employees like dogshit receive no respect. That's simply how it is.

Your stance that people who have dealt with shitty employers who use ridiculous and most times illegal methods to reduce an at-first-glance high level of pay down to as close to minimum wage as they can get should be "grateful" is just absurd.

I like business. And when a business deals fairly with their employees, I'm happy to support them. However, when a business utilizes shady practices to try to reduce the quality of it's emloyee's lives, it deserves to fail.

Edit: Note that the NDA Dell required was to prevent employees or potential employees from running compensation terms by a lawyer. The reason they settled the class action rather than take it to court was because their actions were unlawful, but half the tech industry was engaging in similar practices. They didn't want precedent set. Settling rather than allowing it to go to court was simply taking one for the team.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Feb 20 2024 07:56am
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Feb 20 2024 08:48am
Quote (YeeHaw @ Feb 20 2024 05:47am)
Commie talk dude.

I challenge you to name one employer who demands their hourly employees work 20 free hours a week. You cannot. You can only do word salad to make it seem like a text is worth 15 minutes and a phone call is worth an hour and you get articles like found in OP.

Your text messages aren’t worth fifteen minutes, your phone calls are not worth an hour. While you want to return to watching television and sit on the couch that your employer paid for.

I work over 70 hours on an easy week. I punch in, smoke, shit, the rest of my day is a fucking 2 Short album. I punch out when I leave. If I get home, open a beer, get called into work, I instantly get 4 hours. If I get a call and somebody says, “hey where is this product located, the system is misaligned?” I will spend a few minutes and figure it out. I don’t hold resentment for the person who called and hold information hostage. That is a dick move.

We live im the easiest lives ever lived by a general population, ever in the history of human existence. You are going to sit here and bitch about having to bring your computer home and check your fucking email while you eat Cheetos and watch Netflix? Fuck out of here dude. Y’all gonna cry because you had to answer a fucking text message and wasn’t immediately compensated? Fuck out of here dude. Y’all are the most privileged people in history. Every tiny fucking inconvenience to you demands compensation. Buck the fuck up and do it.

Not sorry this is crying pussy shit. Do your job.


You often say some very stupid things but here you really are proving how clueless you are yet again.

I come from the world of articling, all the big 4 have expectations you are going to work more than 20 hours additional per week. For instance, tax season, you're required billables, office pending is often 300 hours per month. You then have administrative hours, so Feb through April for instance you're punching 320-340 hours per month while being paid for 176.

Not only that you're measured by recovery rate of billable hours, so if you're billable hours are way overblown on a file, you're going eat that, and just not code it to the client number, which results in uncoded hours but still worked hours you didn't get paid for.

Welcome to every finance job that has a flood of university students going into it that is highly competitive as we all seek higher designations.

While and I do not see eye to eye always, I am fairly certain he can confirm from a finance industry standpoint, analysts, accountants, etc. in his experience as well often go 20 hours unpaid per week. Firm life does have its advantages though if you're willing to trample over everyone else and often results in a decent job for many at a client. I can remember the day I woke up and smelled the roses. I charged out at $300 an hour, I was being paid $50 an hour, working 176 hours a month giving the firm 300+. I left and went out on my own, why should they bill a client $300 an hour while I only collect $50 an hour, so each partner can bring home in excess of a million per year. No thanks.

But much to echo what said. There's not a lot of choice entering the industry, were pretty much forced since this is fairly universal across the industry's major employers. Not only are you absolutely exploited hour wise, but you end up having to sign a non-compete agreement and sign your life away half the time. When trying to initially go out on my own, I was threatened with being sued, they knew I was going out, they threatened withholding and they tried to enforce the non-compete over the entirety of Western Canada. I had a fantastic relationship, right up until I decided I wasn't going to make them bank anymore.

This post was edited by SBD on Feb 20 2024 09:13am
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Feb 20 2024 09:23am
Just as an example of how companies like to use Salaried positions to gain extra work from employees, without extra pay. For this example, we'll be assuming the company is retail, simply to keep it easy. the math should be easy to follow:

Employee A gets a position as a cashier. Pay is $20/hour. Set schedule, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. Annual income? $41,600.

Employee B gets a position as assistant manager. Pay is salary, annual payout, $70,000 a year. Overtime is listed as required but rare, otherwise, 40 hour a week based salary.

Now's where it gets fun: Employee A never gets a single second of overtime. Their annual salary of $41,600 is based on 2080 hours worked. Their breakdown for hourly is literally the $20 they agreed to. Employee B finds out that "rare" on overtime means they consistently work 70 hours a week. Their $70,000 annual salary is unaffected by the increased hour requirement.

So, the Assistant Manager, employee B, is putting in 70*52=3640 hours a year. That boils down to 70,000/3640=$19.23/hour.

Funny thing is, if the company is short staffed on cashiers, will the cashier be given the opportunity for overtime? Not a chance. That's what the assistant is for.

Now here's where it gets really fun: Let's say employee A DID get the overtime, and work that same 70 hour week that the employee B does. Okay, so you're looking at 2080 hours at $20 ($41,600), 1560 hours at $30 ($46,800). Total annual income? $88,400.

The company uses the promise of higher pay to attract the person to ther salaried position, then forces them to work a number of hours that reduces their actual pay to below that of the hourly employee. They do it intentionally. Now, let's say the hourly employee, who's not getting overtime, gets a second job as a cashier elsewhere, that also pays that $20/hour, but this is a 30 hour a week position. Now we're back to 3640 hours*$20 an hour equates to an anual income of 72,800. Even WITHOUT OT pay increase, the cashier is more highly paid than the Assistant Manager AND they don't have to worry about randomly being called in or any other such disturbances to their lives.

People who promote these business practices designed directly to trick prospective employees into less pay for more hours while destroying their ability to take on a second job because of a constant "on call" status are garbage, and inappropriate in most fields.
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Feb 20 2024 09:34am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 20 2024 08:23am)
Just as an example of how companies like to use Salaried positions to gain extra work from employees, without extra pay. For this example, we'll be assuming the company is retail, simply to keep it easy. ^YeeHaw the math should be easy to follow:

Employee A gets a position as a cashier. Pay is $20/hour. Set schedule, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. Annual income? $41,600.

Employee B gets a position as assistant manager. Pay is salary, annual payout, $70,000 a year. Overtime is listed as required but rare, otherwise, 40 hour a week based salary.

Now's where it gets fun: Employee A never gets a single second of overtime. Their annual salary of $41,600 is based on 2080 hours worked. Their breakdown for hourly is literally the $20 they agreed to. Employee B finds out that "rare" on overtime means they consistently work 70 hours a week. Their $70,000 annual salary is unaffected by the increased hour requirement.

So, the Assistant Manager, employee B, is putting in 70*52=3640 hours a year. That boils down to 70,000/3640=$19.23/hour.

Funny thing is, if the company is short staffed on cashiers, will the cashier be given the opportunity for overtime? Not a chance. That's what the assistant is for.

Now here's where it gets really fun: Let's say employee A DID get the overtime, and work that same 70 hour week that the employee B does. Okay, so you're looking at 2080 hours at $20 ($41,600), 1560 hours at $30 ($46,800). Total annual income? $88,400.

The company uses the promise of higher pay to attract the person to ther salaried position, then forces them to work a number of hours that reduces their actual pay to below that of the hourly employee. They do it intentionally. Now, let's say the hourly employee, who's not getting overtime, gets a second job as a cashier elsewhere, that also pays that $20/hour, but this is a 30 hour a week position. Now we're back to 3640 hours*$20 an hour equates to an anual income of 72,800. Even WITHOUT OT pay increase, the cashier is more highly paid than the Assistant Manager AND they don't have to worry about randomly being called in or any other such disturbances to their lives.

People who promote these business practices designed directly to trick prospective employees into less pay for more hours while destroying their ability to take on a second job because of a constant "on call" status are garbage, and inappropriate in most fields.


Meanwhile c-suite or partners are all raking in 7 figures while you have individuals barely making a livable wage working 250+ hours per month. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/22/pwc-partners-to-be-paid-906000-this-year

PWC partners making 900K pounds or 1.2M USD as salary while the junior staff they're making that off of starts at a salary between 33k-42K (location dependant). Oh, and they now outsource work to India rather than hiring in first world countries because you can pay those guys a few dollars an hour. They're calling the outsourcing a "talent shortage" , its laughable.

This post was edited by SBD on Feb 20 2024 09:35am
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Feb 20 2024 11:57am
Quote (YeeHaw @ Feb 20 2024 07:47am)
Commie talk dude.

I challenge you to name one employer who demands their hourly employees work 20 free hours a week. You cannot. You can only do word salad to make it seem like a text is worth 15 minutes and a phone call is worth an hour and you get articles like found in OP.

Your text messages aren’t worth fifteen minutes, your phone calls are not worth an hour. While you want to return to watching television and sit on the couch that your employer paid for.

I work over 70 hours on an easy week. I punch in, smoke, shit, the rest of my day is a fucking 2 Short album. I punch out when I leave. If I get home, open a beer, get called into work, I instantly get 4 hours. If I get a call and somebody says, “hey where is this product located, the system is misaligned?” I will spend a few minutes and figure it out. I don’t hold resentment for the person who called and hold information hostage. That is a dick move.

We live im the easiest lives ever lived by a general population, ever in the history of human existence. You are going to sit here and bitch about having to bring your computer home and check your fucking email while you eat Cheetos and watch Netflix? Fuck out of here dude. Y’all gonna cry because you had to answer a fucking text message and wasn’t immediately compensated? Fuck out of here dude. Y’all are the most privileged people in history. Every tiny fucking inconvenience to you demands compensation. Buck the fuck up and do it.

Not sorry this is crying pussy shit. Do your job.


Pwc
Ey
Deloitte
Kpmg

Gee that wasn't hard
And its just a small sample based on my own personal experience
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Feb 20 2024 12:27pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Feb 20 2024 12:57pm)
Pwc
Ey
Deloitte
Kpmg

Gee that wasn't hard
And its just a small sample based on my own personal experience


It's widespread within accounting, particularly around quarter end/year end. Widespread within a lot of other finance roles, especially things like investment banking. Goldman associates regularly work a fuck ton.

Now granted these jobs pay well. I think where this is a real issue is in really junior positions or low skill positions. If you're making 200k a year working 70 hours as a 27 year old investment banker it sucks but it makes sense, it's part of the industry. If you're making 45k a year salary and your employer regular asks you to stay longer or work on weekends, w.e. that's really the people that these protections should be designed for.
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Feb 20 2024 01:53pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 20 2024 11:27am)
It's widespread within accounting, particularly around quarter end/year end. Widespread within a lot of other finance roles, especially things like investment banking. Goldman associates regularly work a fuck ton.

Now granted these jobs pay well. I think where this is a real issue is in really junior positions or low skill positions. If you're making 200k a year working 70 hours as a 27 year old investment banker it sucks but it makes sense, it's part of the industry. If you're making 45k a year salary and your employer regular asks you to stay longer or work on weekends, w.e. that's really the people that these protections should be designed for.


Even once designated in the big four it's not great for the first few years until you move to some associate position but then your entier life is tied to how much client billings you can accumulate per year and what your file recovery is. Zero work life balance.

This post was edited by SBD on Feb 20 2024 01:53pm
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Feb 20 2024 02:42pm


Quote
Why don't you turn your cellphone off Gary?


Pretty much sums up how I feel on the practice.

If your employer is making you to work overtime without pay, they are taking advantage of you. If you don't wish to do so, simply ignore them. Ball is then in their court on how to respond.

Working overtime without compensation is a choice alot of people make, in the hopes of advancing their career or receiving a higher salary. Those hopes often do not pan out. At the end of the day, working for no compensation is your own choice.
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Feb 20 2024 02:53pm
Quote (El1te @ Feb 20 2024 01:42pm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAN-s2ZVww



Pretty much sums up how I feel on the practice.

If your employer is making you to work overtime without pay, they are taking advantage of you. If you don't wish to do so, simply ignore them. Ball is then in their court on how to respond.

Working overtime without compensation is a choice alot of people make, in the hopes of advancing their career or receiving a higher salary. Those hopes often do not pan out. At the end of the day, working for no compensation is your own choice.


If were being honest though, the vast majority of employers hiring junior staff , especially those pursuing a designation of some type, be it finance, accounting or legal have little to no options. There's an annual flood of graduates, and I can recall all those networking sessions. You're trying to claw tooth and nail over the other graduates to get a spot.

I'd hardly call it a choice when its not a choice, if you want your designation, especially before the verified experience route, you had absolutely no choice but to go via a firm for your Chartered Accountant designation for instance. Or if you want to ever sign-off on an audit report or do certain tax engagements you need to be competant in those areas, which means you have to enter into those modules and you have to accumulate X hours at a firm before you can get your designation.

Sure you have the "choice" but its not really a choice.

Its the way the institutions are set up. They're designed to feed cheap labour into the big four and other large and moderate sized firms.

This post was edited by SBD on Feb 20 2024 02:56pm
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Feb 20 2024 03:37pm
Quote (SBD @ Feb 20 2024 03:53pm)
If were being honest though, the vast majority of employers hiring junior staff , especially those pursuing a designation of some type, be it finance, accounting or legal have little to no options. There's an annual flood of graduates, and I can recall all those networking sessions. You're trying to claw tooth and nail over the other graduates to get a spot.

I'd hardly call it a choice when its not a choice, if you want your designation, especially before the verified experience route, you had absolutely no choice but to go via a firm for your Chartered Accountant designation for instance. Or if you want to ever sign-off on an audit report or do certain tax engagements you need to be competant in those areas, which means you have to enter into those modules and you have to accumulate X hours at a firm before you can get your designation.

Sure you have the "choice" but its not really a choice.

Its the way the institutions are set up. They're designed to feed cheap labour into the big four and other large and moderate sized firms.


It's probably tougher in markets like Canada too that are more concentrated. My bank has presence in Canada and we hear from some of our Canada associates/bankers that it's a lot tougher up there so you kind of have to put up with it. Here in the states we have way more banks and financial institutions for finance/accounting people to go into. May not be the same when you have 6 huge banks accounting for 90+% of all banking.
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