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Oct 10 2019 07:01pm
Maybe the Dems all contracted a disease... bovinum scatolus, commonly known as the BS disease.



/e The fact that the Dems are believed by anyone anymore... is a fairly bad sign for the US.

This post was edited by Ghot on Oct 10 2019 07:09pm
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Oct 10 2019 07:19pm
Quote (IceMage @ 11 Oct 2019 02:40)
At the end of the day all the whistleblower did was point to actual events that happened. Which is why I've constantly called this Trump spin irrelevant. The propaganda machine is chomping at the bit to have an individual they can sink their teeth into, because it's easier than defending Trump's obviously corrupt behavior. The whistleblower doesn't matter outside of the Trump cult. Because rational people are more worried about what our head of government does when he thinks people aren't listening or watching.

The both fortunate and unfortunate reality is that a president like Trump forces individuals inside the White House, State/Defense Departments, and Intelligence Community to leak. They're dealing with an unhinged, corrupt, ignorant executive. That necessarily results in leaking. You can't really fix that, and I'm not sure I would want it fixed. Americans should know when the most powerful guy in the country is a complete mess.

So, if and when a competent executive gets in, whether it's Biden, Warren, or some competent Republican, I'll criticize leaks. But right now it doesn't make sense to(at least in a general sense).


https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/trump-defies-subpoenas-and-the-constitution/

replace "powers" with "leaks" in this article, and it is the perfect reply to your take on "selectively leaking depending on whether you like or dislike the administration".
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Oct 11 2019 12:57am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 11 Oct 2019 03:19)
https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/trump-defies-subpoenas-and-the-constitution/

replace "powers" with "leaks" in this article, and it is the perfect reply to your take on "selectively leaking depending on whether you like or dislike the administration".


stop fooling yourself. each administration heavily relies on professionals that are lifelong members of the other party, and only now they suddenly decide to leak like crazy? because there simply was no resentment for obama?! you can't possibly be that naive. the thing that changed is that the current administration is not only highly incompetent, but also regularly acts like the corrupt crooks they are, with a complete disregard for the rule of law and separation of powers. that's why we see all those leaks, not because republicans are saints without a partisan bone in their body. is it opposite day again in trump country?!
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Oct 11 2019 01:18am
Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 10 2019 08:55pm)
We've seen more and more evidence that what Trump did wasn't bad, that the most inflammatory aspects of the accusation was false, that we've got a molehill not a mountain. And we're seeing that the bias and political motive of partisan democrats to try to trump up the charges, was also shared by the whistleblower.


That's absurd of course. No sane person believes that what Trump did wasn't bad. You can argue that the quid pro quo isn't there(it is), you can argue it's not impeachable(it is), but pretending Trump, Guiliani, and the State Department's behavior in all of this is above board and perfectly acceptable is just laughable. I get that your sole purpose here on PaRD is to put out propaganda in favor of Trump... but this is the most absurd position you've ever taken.
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Oct 11 2019 01:43am
Quote (fender @ Oct 11 2019 02:57am)
stop fooling yourself. each administration heavily relies on professionals that are lifelong members of the other party, and only now they suddenly decide to leak like crazy? because there simply was no resentment for obama?! you can't possibly be that naive. the thing that changed is that the current administration is not only highly incompetent, but also regularly acts like the corrupt crooks they are, with a complete disregard for the rule of law and separation of powers. that's why we see all those leaks, not because republicans are saints without a partisan bone in their body. is it opposite day again in trump country?!


Also, many of the leaks come from inside the White House. One of Trump's most trusted advisers(Madeleine Westerhout) reportedly was sobbing at the RNC the night Trump got elected(she was fired weeks ago for talking shit about Trump's family). The acting chief of staff called Trump a terrible person during the campaign. Trump's Secretary of State during the campaign said Trump would be an authoritarian president. Do we need to discuss how many of Trump's cabinet members have called him a fucking moron or an idiot?

There's a couple of true believers around Trump(his family, Stephen Miller, etc). Everybody else is just along for the ride, trying to do the best they can for the country. They know he's an incompetent buffoon, and they're eager to tell their journalist friends about it.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/at-least-four-national-security-officials-raised-alarms-about-ukraine-policy-before-and-after-trump-call-with-ukrainian-president/2019/10/10/ffe0c88a-eb6d-11e9-9c6d-436a0df4f31d_story.html

Quote
At least four national security officials were so alarmed by the Trump administration’s attempts to pressure Ukraine for political purposes that they raised concerns with a White House lawyer both before and immediately after President Trump’s July 25 call with that country’s president, according to U.S. officials and other people familiar with the matter.

The nature and timing of the previously undisclosed discussions with National Security Council legal adviser John Eisenberg indicate that officials were delivering warnings through official White House channels earlier than previously understood — including before the call that precipitated a whistleblower complaint and the impeachment inquiry of the president.

At the time, the officials were unnerved by the removal in May of the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, by subsequent efforts by Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani to promote Ukraine-related conspiracies, as well as by signals in meetings at the White House that Trump wanted the new government in Kiev to deliver material that might be politically damaging to Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden.

Those concerns soared in the call’s aftermath, officials said. Within minutes, senior officials including national security adviser John Bolton were being pinged by subordinates about problems with what the president had said to his Ukrainian counterpart, Volodymyr Zelensky. Bolton and others scrambled to obtain a rough transcript that was already being “locked down” on a highly classified computer network.

“When people were listening to this in real time, there were significant concerns about what was going on — alarm bells were kind of ringing,” said one person familiar with the sequence of events inside the White House, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive matter. “People were trying to figure out what to do, how to get a grasp on the situation.”

It is unclear whether some or all of the officials who complained to Eisenberg are also the ones who later spoke to the whistleblower.


:bouncy:

This post was edited by IceMage on Oct 11 2019 01:54am
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Oct 11 2019 02:08am
Quote (IceMage @ 11 Oct 2019 09:43)
Also, many of the leaks come from inside the White House. One of Trump's most trusted advisers(Madeleine Westerhout) reportedly was sobbing at the RNC the night Trump got elected(she was fired weeks ago for talking shit about Trump's family). The acting chief of staff called Trump a terrible person during the campaign. Trump's Secretary of State during the campaign said Trump would be an authoritarian president. Do we need to discuss how many of Trump's cabinet members have called him a fucking moron or an idiot?

There's a couple of true believers around Trump(his family, Stephen Miller, etc). Everybody else is just along for the ride, trying to do the best they can for the country. They know he's an incompetent buffoon, and they're eager to tell their journalist friends about it.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/at-least-four-national-security-officials-raised-alarms-about-ukraine-policy-before-and-after-trump-call-with-ukrainian-president/2019/10/10/ffe0c88a-eb6d-11e9-9c6d-436a0df4f31d_story.html



:bouncy:


inb4 'anonymous sources don't count - they are all just democratic operatives attempting a coup against the president because they simply can't accept the EC result, and reliable sources have always given their name, like john miller, john barron, david dennison, or carolin gallego...'
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Oct 11 2019 04:59am
Yet the flashnews are two Giuliani fixers arrested "with one way tickets to Ukraine"

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/trump-impeachment-inquiry-latest-ukraine-indictments-2019-10-11/?ftag=CNM-00-10aac3a

accused of funneling foreign money to numerous candidates and committees, including a super PAC supporting the president and a U.S. congressman.

Using some kind of shadow firm trading gas ...Deep private sector methods vs Deep state... ? When you bitch about politics establishment but it get replaced by another, maybe worse, establishment ....
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Oct 11 2019 07:09am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 10 2019 05:12pm)


This was the narrative.
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Oct 11 2019 07:53am
Quote (fender @ 11 Oct 2019 08:57)
stop fooling yourself. each administration heavily relies on professionals that are lifelong members of the other party, and only now they suddenly decide to leak like crazy? because there simply was no resentment for obama?! you can't possibly be that naive. the thing that changed is that the current administration is not only highly incompetent, but also regularly acts like the corrupt crooks they are, with a complete disregard for the rule of law and separation of powers. that's why we see all those leaks, not because republicans are saints without a partisan bone in their body. is it opposite day again in trump country?!


deep state creatures ("career officials") keep trying to undermine the one president who acts against the interests of the deep state. confirmation for their integrity, according to you.



your argument would make sense at face value if one looked only at the last 10 or so years. but the reality is that most administrations had their fair share of corrupt actions (does anyone seriously think no other president has ever pressured a foreign country to behave in his interest?)

does anyone remember the GWB administration, how it was deceiving and scheming to drag the country into the Iraq war - a war in which they had concrete, private investments? they started an unnecessary war which filled their own pockets, yet there was no noticeable uptick in leaks. if all those oh-so-righteous "career officials" in the state and defense department were really just leaking against the Trump administration because of its unprecedented corruption, then why didnt they leak and try to undermind the Iraq war to at least the same degree?

similar story with Reagan, Nixon, Johnson and Kennedy, who all had their scandals and crooked actions, but were largely acting in line with the deep state, and consequently didnt face large-scale leaking.






Quote (IceMage @ 11 Oct 2019 09:43)
Also, many of the leaks come from inside the White House. One of Trump's most trusted advisers(Madeleine Westerhout) reportedly was sobbing at the RNC the night Trump got elected(she was fired weeks ago for talking shit about Trump's family). The acting chief of staff called Trump a terrible person during the campaign. Trump's Secretary of State during the campaign said Trump would be an authoritarian president. Do we need to discuss how many of Trump's cabinet members have called him a fucking moron or an idiot?

There's a couple of true believers around Trump(his family, Stephen Miller, etc). Everybody else is just along for the ride, trying to do the best they can for the country. They know he's an incompetent buffoon, and they're eager to tell their journalist friends about it.


Agreed. Trump's primary triumph in 2015/16 was basically a hostile takeover of the Republican Party. They are in for the ride because they have no other choice. Which perfectly explains why they try to prevent Trump from pulling off any true realignment of the party platform or US foreign policy. These leakers are not some noble knights in a shining armor, they are partisan creatures serving their own interests, and no, they are not truly members of "Team Trump" despite formally belonging to the same party.

Of course one has to admit that Trump indeed is an incompetent buffoon who's making it awfully easy for his adversaries to find and publicize dirt on him. As I said above: many previous presidents did similarly corrupt things - they just werent as stupid and clumsy about it as Trump and at least prevented themselves from being caught red-handed.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 11 2019 07:55am
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