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Aug 9 2020 07:48pm
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Aug 10 2020 05:41am)
state ownership is bad

collective ownership among individuals or private ownership among individuals that then engage within a regulated market by the government is the most ideal form of governance.

Social Democracy, western europe figured it out.


Why is state ownership bad?
Last i checked state ownership of resources is the best working model for the average citizen.
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Aug 9 2020 07:59pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ 10 Aug 2020 03:48)
Why is state ownership bad?
Last i checked state ownership of resources is the best working model for the average citizen.


It's the best working model where common resources have to be administered, like utilities or the postal service. It's generally subpar where innovation or efficiency are the main focus.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 9 2020 07:59pm
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Aug 9 2020 08:08pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 10 2020 11:59am)
It's the best working model where common resources have to be administered, like utilities or the postal service. It's generally subpar where innovation or efficiency are the main focus.


A 25% ownership stake would not effect this, however i was talking about natural resources like oil, csg, lng, coal and other minerals.
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Aug 9 2020 08:25pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 9 2020 08:59pm)
It's the best working model where common resources have to be administered, like utilities or the postal service. It's generally subpar where innovation or efficiency are the main focus.


Depends how it is administered. The post office was wildly successful and totally self-funded until it was required to take on trillions in obligations decades before they would come due and it was made illegal for them to offer new services that compete with other providers.

Similarly, thousands of businesses that try to innovate fail on the private side.

There isn't a real trend in public vs private. It's all in the details.
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Aug 9 2020 08:39pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 10 Aug 2020 04:25)
Depends how it is administered. The post office was wildly successful and totally self-funded until it was required to take on trillions in obligations decades before they would come due and it was made illegal for them to offer new services that compete with other providers.

Similarly, thousands of businesses that try to innovate fail on the private side.

There isn't a real trend in public vs private. It's all in the details.


I think there are a few fairly obvious trends. Government-run enterprises generally innovate at a lower pace than private businesses; and privatization of utilities like water and electricity supply or public railroads usually ends with a qualitatively inferior and much more expensive product than if we had left them in the state's hands.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 9 2020 08:40pm
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Aug 9 2020 08:44pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 9 2020 09:39pm)
I think there are a few fairly obvious trends. Government-run enterprises generally innovate at a lower pace than private businesses; and privatization of utilities like water and electricity supply or public railroads usually ends with a qualitatively inferior and much more expensive product.


I disagree, mainly because a common trend is a party fucking over the service and using that fucking over of the service to justify it going private because the service sucks.

See the active attack on the post office that is happening literally right now.

Additionally, public services are routinely made private and then go to shit.

See the post office, prisons, and yeah, a lot of utility companies are total shit.
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Aug 9 2020 08:51pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 10 Aug 2020 04:44)
I disagree, mainly because a common trend is a party fucking over the service and using that fucking over of the service to justify it going private because the service sucks.

See the active attack on the post office that is happening literally right now.

Additionally, public services are routinely made private and then go to shit.

See the post office, prisons, and yeah, a lot of utility companies are total shit.


Yes, I already made the same point. Privatization of public services almost always ends in failure.

I dont know enough about the US post office to comment on that particular example. If what you're saying about the post office is really true, then I get why it triggers you so much. ;)
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Aug 9 2020 09:19pm
The only cheap energy in my country are state owned utilities, it was all state owned, some conservatives states sold it off, they now pay triple what we do.
I also agree that neo liberals constantly sabotage public services then try to use that as justification to sell them.

This post was edited by Plaguefear on Aug 9 2020 09:20pm
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Aug 9 2020 09:35pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 9 2020 10:51pm)
Yes, I already made the same point. Privatization of public services almost always ends in failure.

I dont know enough about the US post office to comment on that particular example. If what you're saying about the post office is really true, then I get why it triggers you so much. ;)



You know me... anything remotely resembling socialism or communism... yuck.

Here's what happened with the US Post Office.

Apparently, the USPS came up short on retirement monies for employees, don't know why.
Then, someone passed a law that they had to hold (set aside) money for the retirement benefits for every employee, for the next 75 years. (Sounds like something a Dem would do)

Now the USPS is going broke. Holding retirement benefits for all employees for 75 years is a large chunk of change.



The details, you can probably get from Google, but this is the gist of what has just recently happened.




Quote
Yet it has faced outright hostility from Donald Trump, who has repeatedly criticized its business agreement with Amazon, which allows the e-commerce giant to deliver its packages at a discounted rate. Trump has promised to block aid for the agency unless it quadruples its prices for package shipping, which could cause the company to take its business elsewhere.

The Postal Service’s struggles began in the early 2000s. In 2005, Congress imposed an unprecedented austerity measure on the agency which required USPS to pre-fund retirement benefits 75 years in the future, including for employees who have not even been born yet. No other government agency or corporation operates in such a manner, and the move left the USPS woefully strapped for funding.

That crisis deepened with the 2008 recession. At first, mail volumes remained high in the early 2000s, even amid the rise of the internet, but the economy took a steep downturn, dealing a huge blow to the advertising mail that makes up the USPS’s bread and butter. Overall mail volumes fell by about a third over the following decade, and because the agency doesn’t receive any taxpayer money, the decline placed it in uncharted financial waters.

In the absence of legislative action the USPS has been forced to cut costs where it can, eliminating more than 200,000 staff positions. This has strained the agency’s workforce, especially in rural postal stations and in cities that see large numbers of Amazon packages.





It all started with the deal the USPS made with Amazon.... and then other online etailers.


/e In the quote above, I don't know the accuracy of the dates. I personally didn't notice that the USPS was delivering the last leg of the delivery route, till about 2010.


I don't know why the USPS even made the deal, or WHEN they made it. But as I said, I didn't notice it till about 2010-ish. Before that, you ordered something online, it came by UPS or FedEx, etc., all the way to your door. Somewhere around 2010, the last leg of the package's journey, started being handled by the USPS.
Like, the package would start out with a FedEx or UPS tracking number, but would change in route to a USPS tracking number for the last leg.

Consequently, this started causing the USPS to lose money, which caused the lessening of retirement benefits, which caused the draconian law to be passed, which is hurting the USPS even more.

This post was edited by Ghot on Aug 9 2020 09:53pm
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Aug 9 2020 09:45pm
Quote (Ghot @ Aug 9 2020 10:35pm)
You know me... anything remotely resembling socialism or communism... yuck.

Here's what happened with the US Post Office.

Apparently, the USPS came up short on retirement monies for employees, don't know why.
Then, someone passed a law that they had to hold money for the retirement benefits for every employee, for the next 75 years. (Sounds like something a Dem would do)

Now the USPS is going broke. Holding retirement benefits for all employees for 75 years is a large chunk of change.

The details, you can probably get from Google, but this is the gist of what has just recently happened.


The retirement and healthcare allotment for 75 years was a bipartisan effort. It wasn't recent, it was passed in 2006 and the post office started defaulting in 2012. It remains still today.

That same law (Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act) also prohibits the postal service from offering any new services that don't directly involve sending packages, despite the postal service offering such a wide range of services they were once the largest private banking service in the country. They are legally prevented from innovating. It was literally designed to kill the postal service.

More recently with the appointment of the current postmaster general all the services got worse and slower as a concerted attempt to make the post office even worse.
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