firstly, i haven't seen one single person call Rudy "trump's personal lawyer" from the right side of the aisle, that's what i mean. it's peppered into left leaning articles and tweets all over the place. seems similar to how both left and right handle messaging. they find a phrase with the desired effect and everyone starts using it. accuracy is only one aspect here, the fact that many people are parroting the same phrase is also interesting.

from his wiki:



what the rest of my post means is that from a legal standpoint this seems like a loophole. Rudy can neglect to register as an official foreign agent, do foreign agent stuff, and then be protected by client privilege. but, looking forward, if this loophole was closed (perhaps by requiring him to work in the State Dept and register as an agent) would it remove the client privilege. idk personally, its not something i've seen talked about. when speaking of the Trump team "has drawn criticism" isn't very solid. anyone can see its a bit unethical, but i doubt it's currently illegal. just another good reason for an investigation i suppose, even if trump doesnt fall u can add exposing Rudy and ukraine arm sales to the list of good outcomes of a "worst case" outcome to impeachment.

lastly, we can't forget Barr's name was dropped in nearly all of the lines from the Transcript. so even if working with Rudy was mentioned it was to be done with Barr as well. which ties in actual confirmed positions in this mess.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 26 2019 07:36am

If Trump was engaged in a campaign to pressure the Ukrainians, and he was incautious enough to do it right out in the open in front of dozens of people looped into this call, why wouldn't he actually use the leverage of foreign aid that Joe Biden had?
https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1176882766597767168

The whole 'quid pro quo / coercion' angle seems to be mostly giving way as people instead say the real scandal is trump just asking them to look into Biden, 'pressure' or not.
But that begs the question- why wouldn't he use the obvious pressure? The same one Joe Biden famously deployed, which is what Trump knows is at issue?


It seems to be that to believe in a nefarious intent of coercion, you have to simultaneously believe Trump was willing to talk about Biden to Ukraine right on this phone call with large numbers of people looped in- yet was clever enough to avoid directly talking about the foreign aid and instead left it as an implicit and inferred threat. And left it secret, making it unknowable to the Ukrainians, so they couldn't even know they were being threatened. Oof

This post was edited by Goomshill on Sep 26 2019 07:40am

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/16/edward_snowden_joe_biden_threatened_countries_not_to_give_me_asylum.html

we finally legitimate proof of a whistle blower being subject to numerous instances of international political quid-pro-quo by not only an elected official, but an appointed official



it's hilarious how the tabloid media can get away with just skipping over sentences to form a conclusion but that's why they are tabloids and #fakenews



This post was edited by excellence on Sep 26 2019 07:49am

Why do we need to get hung up on basic facts. It's not spin to call Rudy Trump's personal lawyer. Jesus people.

This post was edited by IceMage on Sep 26 2019 07:55am

admittedly i dont watch fox news, i was wrong about it being no right wingers. i'm still seeing a pattern of almost all left wing posts on this situation using the same "personal lawyer" tag. no one is using "adviser to the White House" with such regularity.

as to "getting caught up on basic facts" you can apply that to yourself. i'm asking far more than just basic quetions, i'm trying to talk about the ethical and political loopholes of attorney client privilege and how it applies to international foreign policy. Cohen was ONLY a personal lawyer, Rudy seems like something more. that's my entire point, that Rudy isn't JUST trump's personal lawyer in the same sense that Cohen was. this why i said the political vs personal fixer.

i've said its unethical, ive said it's a loophole, and i've said closing it would be good especially if it removes the client privilege. and your response is "he IS his personal lawyer (something i never contested), why are you stuck on basic facts (i'm clearly not)"

edit: and since Ukraine seems to have cybersecurity aspects to the investigation, Rudy's unofficial position seems valid. unethical, but valid. it's not as if Rudy is investigating an oil spill.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 26 2019 08:12am

Before Rudy became Trump's attorney, I think he was probably described as an adviser/informal adviser to the president. I think continuing to call him Trump's personal lawyer is most accurate, especially because Guiliani frames his Ukraine work as "on behalf of my client".

I get a bit triggered.gif when basic facts are painted as left-wing narratives. Political discussion in this country is getting so insane because basic facts can't be agreed upon.

I agree. Weird stuff happens when Trump tries to enact foreign policy through non-government officials, and politicians/voters don't care because it's a cult.

E - It's not really enacting foreign policy of course. It's using non-government officials to use the strength of the presidency to pursue political ends overseas.

This post was edited by IceMage on Sep 26 2019 08:17am

Rudy's path from campaign adviser, to whitehouse adviser, to attorney no doubt was only to get client privilege. also it is a way for Rudy to get paid without having a job in anyone's staff. my central question is if you require him to register as a foreign agent and/or require him to work for the State Dept when/where can he still invoke client privilege? can he be a state dept employee AND trump's lawyer? i'd like to know legally where the lines are now, where they would be if we changed the rules, and what loopholes might still be open.

I don't like John Kerry talking to Iran, Joe Biden talking to Ukraine about personal issues, or Rudy talking to Ukraine. when we mix personal issues (or unofficial govt agents) with international policy shit gets real sticky. i dont even like Dennis Rodman in North Korea.

overall, so we don't make horse pulp, if Rudy was "just Trump's personal lawyer" (ala Cohen) the main scandal here would be why the Pres' personal lawyer is engaged in international diplomacy, whereas what we have is that's only a wrinkle to the controversy. in part because of Rudy's officially unofficial place in the administration.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 26 2019 08:26am

racist

*LAUGH OUT LOUD*

What are you referring to?

should have learned from the LA riots: