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Oct 23 2019 08:07am
Quote (IceMage @ 23 Oct 2019 09:11)
Well, there's no good reason to believe the Bidens were doing anything criminal or corrupt(beyond the optics of Hunter taking the job in the first place), and the Ukraine DNC server story doesn't make any sense.

What's amazing to me is the Republican party and propagandists in the media are saying that the Ukraine DNC server conspiracy theory possibly has merit to it. During Russiagate I thought Trump and his allies were just throwing up nonsensical theories to distract his supporters... but I guess they're all genuinely nuts. How can any serious person support a party that has turned into Infowars?

----

https://twitter.com/normative/status/1186991778433503237

yep


you support a krazy konspiracy kult which denies basic mathematics *LAUGH OUT LOUD*
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Oct 23 2019 08:17am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 23 2019 03:14am)
You can joke all you want, and yes, we all know Trump acted out of corrupt intent. But none of this will change the fact that Trump's defense absolutely hinges on whether he was asking the Ukrainians to investigate real, blatant corruption or if he was asking them to pursue a bogus investigation serving nothing but his personal interest.

I've said this maaaaany pages ago in this thread right here, and I'll stick by it: if team trump can show that the Bidens were indeed corrupt and self-enriching, then he and his defenders can spin his own self-interested behavior as a noble attempt at rooting out leftover corruption from the previous administration, and his supporters will eat it up.


alternatively, what if it's both?

does Trump going after corruption knowing it will hurt Biden rise to the level of impeachment?

presumably there's dozens of nations in the world that are corrupt that the USA also has dealings with. China is corrupt, Venezuela, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. we deal with them all for arms, protection deals, military pullouts, etc.

if Trump was concerned about corruption with Ukraine, AND trump wanted Biden looked into, then it's a big big problem. because there's dozens of countries trump's not denying aid to, where Biden also doesn't have dealings.

i've read a lot of either/or type narratives, not enough people talking about the duality here and what it means.
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Oct 23 2019 08:31am
Quote (thesnipa @ 23 Oct 2019 16:17)
alternatively, what if it's both?

does Trump going after corruption knowing it will hurt Biden rise to the level of impeachment?

presumably there's dozens of nations in the world that are corrupt that the USA also has dealings with. China is corrupt, Venezuela, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. we deal with them all for arms, protection deals, military pullouts, etc.

if Trump was concerned about corruption with Ukraine, AND trump wanted Biden looked into, then it's a big big problem. because there's dozens of countries trump's not denying aid to, where Biden also doesn't have dealings.

i've read a lot of either/or type narratives, not enough people talking about the duality here and what it means.


well, as I said, Trump was clearly acting out of self-interest. if he were a virtuous president (instead of the swamp king), evidently concerned about corruption at home and abroad, then he could also have gone after the highly questionable Biden dealings in Ukraine without having the public or the more sane Democrats turn on him, despite the political ramifications of going after a potential rival. as it stands, Trump clearly doesnt give a fuck about corruption anywhere, except for the one case where it happens to harm one of his strongest political opponents. it's clearly a bullshit narrative.

nonetheless, the duality you are talking about is exactly the reason why he will get away with it - it will allow him to muddy the waters enough, to drag this whole issue down into a moral grey zone to the point where partisanship is able to take over and save his ass.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 23 2019 08:31am
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Oct 23 2019 08:39am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 23 2019 09:31am)
well, as I said, Trump was clearly acting out of self-interest. if he were a virtuous president (instead of the swamp king), evidently concerned about corruption at home and abroad, then he could also have gone after the highly questionable Biden dealings in Ukraine without having the public or the more sane Democrats turn on him, despite the political ramifications of going after a potential rival. as it stands, Trump clearly doesnt give a fuck about corruption anywhere, except for the one case where it happens to harm one of his strongest political opponents. it's clearly a bullshit narrative.

nonetheless, the duality you are talking about is exactly the reason why he will get away with it - it will allow him to muddy the waters enough, to drag this whole issue down into a moral grey zone to the point where partisanship is able to take over and save his ass.


im not sure how the GOP can even say the narrative with a straight face while Trump is tweeting how corrupt china is, while trying to get a trade deal with them endorsed by congress. sometimes it's nuanced, sometimes it's layers deep. this one is so on the surface i'm not sure how people can think it's pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. the truth is most of the honest trump followers would be happy to give Trump an ethics violation slap on the wrist because this hurts Biden. and perhaps that's the right response, but im not even sure what that slap on the wrist could be. for campaign finance violations we fine the POTUS's campaign. we can't exactly fine him for executive branch maleficence. the congress has impeachment, angry tones of voice, and twitter to punish the president for bad behavior in office. if all you have is a wrench and a hammer you're going to have a hard time doing a lot of repairs.
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Oct 23 2019 08:49am
Quote (thesnipa @ 23 Oct 2019 16:39)
im not sure how the GOP can even say the narrative with a straight face while Trump is tweeting how corrupt china is, while trying to get a trade deal with them endorsed by congress. sometimes it's nuanced, sometimes it's layers deep. this one is so on the surface i'm not sure how people can think it's pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. the truth is most of the honest trump followers would be happy to give Trump an ethics violation slap on the wrist because this hurts Biden. and perhaps that's the right response, but im not even sure what that slap on the wrist could be. for campaign finance violations we fine the POTUS's campaign. we can't exactly fine him for executive branch maleficence. the congress has impeachment, angry tones of voice, and twitter to punish the president for bad behavior in office. if all you have is a wrench and a hammer you're going to have a hard time doing a lot of repairs.



I've seen a great article about this exact problem a couple of days ago:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/trivialization-of-impeachment-has-consequences-that-threaten-liberty/

Quote
The Framers were sophisticated men, who saw themselves as both students and victims of executive power run amok (as about two minutes’ perusal of the Declaration of Independence elucidates). They understood that governance would involve tussles between the political branches and episodes of overreach — whether out of incompetence, malevolence, or urgency — for which the extraordinary impeachment remedy would be gross overkill. Routine disputes involving the propensities of both the legislature and the executive to act outside their authorities would be handled by lesser remedies. Congress, most importantly, was given the power of the purse and significant power over executive agencies (to create them, to limit their authority, and, in the Senate’s case, to approve their leaders).

My argument in Faithless Execution was that this system has broken down, with no repairs on the horizon. The Framers naturally thought congressional control of the executive budget would obviate the need to resort to impeachment. Lawmakers could defund dubious executive initiatives and withhold funds necessary to carry out the president’s priorities; this would pressure the executive branch to comply with statutes as well as congressional demands for information and policy modification. The ultimate question of a president’s fitness would be left to the sovereign — the American people, exercising the franchise.

In the last century, however, the federal government and the administrative state have grown enormously, vastly increasing executive power. Meanwhile, congressional funding processes have descended into dysfunction. Rather than budgeting programmatically and with an eye on individual outlays, Congress does mammoth omnibus funding. Spending grows on autopilot, with both the president and lawmakers fearful of being seen as slashing dollars from what the media portray as critical federal functions. The power of the purse is no longer a practical check on executive overreach.

That would seem to make impeachment even more indispensable. In the absence of a credible threat of impeachment, lawmakers would have no real check on presidential misconduct — other than Congress’s capacity to embarrass the administration politically with public hearings and commentary. That is, unless impeachment is a real possibility, presidents are limited only by their own sense of what they can get away with politically. That is barely a check in day-to-day governance. It leaves a wide berth for presidential legislating, lawlessness, and flouting of congressional mandates.



The tldr is that the author also cant come up with a good solution for this "gap" between impeachment and everything else Congress can do to rein in a president, but that trivializing impeachment by ramming it through without building public support for impeachment would cause even greater harm. His argument basically boils down to: Democrats should use the impeachment process to convince the public of their point of view, hoping that this will either change Trump's behavior going forward, or cause him to lose reelection in 2020.
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Oct 23 2019 08:52am
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 23 2019 09:11am)
Well, there's no good reason to believe the Bidens were doing anything criminal or corrupt(beyond the optics of Hunter taking the job in the first place), and the Ukraine DNC server story doesn't make any sense.

What's amazing to me is the Republican party and propagandists in the media are saying that the Ukraine DNC server conspiracy theory possibly has merit to it. During Russiagate I thought Trump and his allies were just throwing up nonsensical theories to distract his supporters... but I guess they're all genuinely nuts. How can any serious person support a party that has turned into Infowars?

----

https://twitter.com/normative/status/1186991778433503237

yep


Corruption in Ukraine is ubiquitous.

When a wealthy politicians son accepts a lucrative position at a corrupt company in a corrupt country for a job he's uniquely unqualified for, there's every reason to think something is amiss.
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Oct 23 2019 09:02am
Quote (bogie160 @ Oct 23 2019 09:52am)
Corruption in Ukraine is ubiquitous.

When a wealthy politicians son accepts a lucrative position at a corrupt company in a corrupt country for a job he's uniquely unqualified for, there's every reason to think something is amiss.


yeah, so there's like dozens of things amiss per year then. including in Trump's own family. the takeaway is that only Ukraine/Biden drew the response to withhold aid. which in the context of them needing that aid desperately makes leveraging it even more of a potential issue. offering someone a stalemate unless they investigate your political opponent when they're facing potential war with our common foe is pretty scummy when we have journalists murdered by the Saudis, we're not leaning on China for human right's violations, pulling out of Syria in coordination with the Turks, etc. we're "fighting corruption" in a country that isn't ours, that's facing serious pressure from Russia, while working with objectively equal or more corrupt nations.
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Oct 23 2019 09:09am
Quote (bogie160 @ 23 Oct 2019 16:52)
Corruption in Ukraine is ubiquitous.

When a wealthy politicians son accepts a lucrative position at a corrupt company in a corrupt country for a job he's uniquely unqualified for, there's every reason to think something is amiss.


The fact is... Hunter Biden smells like fuck, when reading his resume it's just crazy.
But Donald Trump pressuring for investigation like this is as much crazy; and imo a crime.

/nb; and GL developing on nepotism etc...

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Oct 23 2019 09:22am
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Oct 23 2019 09:25am
Quote (bogie160 @ Oct 23 2019 10:52am)
Corruption in Ukraine is ubiquitous.

When a wealthy politicians son accepts a lucrative position at a corrupt company in a corrupt country for a job he's uniquely unqualified for, there's every reason to think something is amiss.


Were James Mattis and George Schultz experts in health technology? Then why did they serve on the board of Theranos?

High profile people get put on boards. It's not surprising the Vice President's son gets put on at Burisma mainly for the credibility it gives the company. If there's evidence of specific wrongdoing by him, bring it forward.
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Oct 23 2019 09:29am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ 23 Oct 2019 11:09)
The fact is... Hunter Biden smell like fuck, when reading his resume it's just crazy.
But Donald Trump pressuring for investigation like this is as much crazy; and imo a crime.


your opinion is invalid when it comes to the law in the USA, sauceman666060606060666

stick to your poe welfare item desires
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