We should shoot for Turkey levels of education....their economy and society is awesome. Or the Slovak Republic, they seem well off. The nations who get the best results have done so because they've removed competition in education in favor of cooperative learning, which is evil and communist according to you, but goes along with prevailing educational and cognitive theory.

Finland in particular struggled for awhile and now they have the top education results in the world.

And your willful ignorance here is staggering. You act as if each student is getting that much over K-12, which might be true in nations like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and Denmark, nations that aren't infected with massive levels of dysfunctional inequality...but in the United States all the money is going to certain schools while other schools are being cut off. You have in no way addressed this deficit. Your chart is meaningless unless this it is addressed that not every student receives what the dishonestly presented chart says they do, because children in white school districts receive much much more than the chart indicates, and children in poor inner-city schools receive pennies on the dollar, get the old trickle-down out of publication books,no after school programs, no music or arts, and no sports programs.

You don't have an argument that isn't based on deception. The schools that are in trouble in America are the ones not getting money. The other schools are doing great, you just need to look at college enrollment to see how effective they are when the effort is put in.

/e cited wrong Nordic nation: http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10/several-lessons-to-be-learned-from-the-finnish-school-system/

This post was edited by Skinned on Mar 11 2015 06:09am

Sadly the group is real, they have been at the front lines with megaphones all week. I feel they are either race baiting for support for their group or just terribly misinformed.

Either way their message is disingenuous, and should be discounted as radical upfront.



You're not going to like it because its rather unconstitutional but the "average" school doesnt need more funding, its the inner city schools that do and as a result they should get more funding to help fill some of the gaps that a property tax funded system creates. Each school should not recieve funding based on population. And before you jump on it, any government contributions will still fall well short of actual rich areas. The school district my aunt works for has a lake in the district with vacation homes for rich chicago people and they bought a $7 million gym without putting it to referendum.

Do you think our public school system is a good example of cooperative learning? Or is our system resulting in failed and suboptimal outcomes that aren't suited to the consumers desires?

And do you think that its mutually exclusive with having multiple school options? Only your preferred way that you think is best should be acceptable and mandated for everyone?



I have "staggering willful ignorance" because you know how to lie and make a strawman? Quality argument bro.
At no point in time did I say or suggest that every student gets the same amount.

I have already mentioned specific examples of better-than-average funded city school districts, as well as mentioning entire racial demographics.

Heres another pretty picture for you



I also fundamentally disagree with your communist bullshit about economic equality. People should be able to spend their money to provide their kids with a more expensive and hopefully better education.
We see that its you who fabricated the claims anyways.

Instead of finding new ways to make it even more expensive, we should be looking at ways to make it more efficient so that even poor districts can have quality education rather than lousy failing public schools.

Are you kidding? Show me some statistics about spending in locals. An honest chart would chart spending by Zip Code.

And of course you don't buy cooperation, it goes against your faith. The United States does not have a cooperative style of education outside of the Montessori environment, which is more or less based on Vygotsky's theory of learning.

Again you posted just another pretty picture with absolutely no meaning. Other people are saying the same thing, read the post above yours. Just read the fucking post above yours because I'm tired of typing the same shit over and over.

You are completely ignoring the most important variable in the entire situation, dismissing it saying "you don't buy into that inequality stuff". It is still there, and it is actually very obvious...so much so that no adult in the conversation is questioning it.

And nobody is stopping people from buying whatever they want. We are talking about basic public services. Try to pay attention to what we are talking about.

This post was edited by Skinned on Mar 11 2015 06:33am

i completely agree with that statement. trends show that spending will only ever increase as efficiency measures are often struck down by those who claim on behalf of teachers unions that they are anti teachers and forcing teachers to do an unfair amount of work.

However there is one gripe i have with your graph. it shows spending per student but not spending direction, free lunches drain a massive amount of funding from poor schools, black white doesnt matter. If each school spends 10k on a kid but one school pays 2k a year on food for the one kid while the other gets paid 2k a year who will spend more on educational programs? Theres a reason that alot of inner city programs charge student 100$ per sport season simply to gas up buses, and in high school i remember sports costing like 20-25$.

What I advocate would allow for tons of different types of education in America.
You can have cooperative education and individualistic and whatever else someone would offer.

One size does not fit all, no matter how hard you want to push it, no matter how much money you force others to throw at it, nor how many communist birthday cakes you eat.


"no meaning"?
You were spouting off about "whites" getting vastly more funding and the data presented directly smashes your outright lies.

An education spending disparity simply cannot be the reason for outcome disparity among races when blacks are actually funded slightly more than whites..


One other guys feelings and opinion does not prove what I said to be wrong.
He feels poorer districts should get more and more funding by other people. I do not. A disagreement of opinion does not make me wrong. Thats not going to change, no matter how much marxist rhetoric and appeals to emotion are posted.
You feeling they need more funding is not the same thing as proving that funding is whats holding them back.


Another misrepresentation.. classy.

Ill repeat "At no point in time did I say or suggest that every student gets the same amount."
There certainly are school districts with very different levels of funding.


Actually government policy directly inhibits people from buying whatever they want in education. It greatly confines choices and opportunities.
Your advocated move towards more centralization, anti-competition, and forced desegregation would limit and weaken it even more.

School funding that comes out of a district's property taxes is paid for by the people of that local community.



This plays into my narrative that the money is spent inefficiently.

Skinned doesn't want to accept the flaws and shortcomings of catering to teacher's unions and the lack of competition or efficiency.. He loves that stuff.
The attention must be deflected to the evil capitalist racist inequality

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 11 2015 07:18am

And this isn't just inner city schools anymore. There is a problem as well with rural schools. A lot of tax bases are drying up as towns slowly die with their residents. Family farms disappear and corporate farms buy up the land. You wind up with schools that can't afford teachers who expect anything over start-up pay. A school with no extracurricular activities, including fine arts and band.
Poor schools every where are having to cut vital parts of education, just to stay open. If a rural school closes it can mean a two hour ride to school. To shitty school with no sports or clubs.

Cam the idea of the free market schools it the most frightening and stupid I've seen you make, you would be denying a class of humans in the US. to a right to an education.

Cam..When in your life experience did a dollar begin to take precedence over the spirit of a human being? When did you say to your self that it's ok to step on someone's back and keep him permanently down just to raise yourself up one more step?

Not this shit again from this scumbag.. I already called you out on it last time. It appears you haven't learned.

Once you do some research and understand how capitalism and competition make things cheaper, better, more efficient and more accessible to the masses you can come back here and see if you want to recant your bullshit about me putting dollars above humans.
Your shortsightedness and ignorance has led you to believe education would be wiped out for poor people.

I advocate a system that I believe would be vastly better overall, even for poor people who are currently stuck in terrible school districts. Im sick and tired of grime coming in and attacking my character just because I don't advocate more taxes and government and less freedom as the solution to our problems.
Someone like Skinned may be misguided and offer a solution I feel is ill-suited to the goals, but I don't claim hes purposely trying to harm minorities and school children or that his motive is evil.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 11 2015 07:38am

I love that narrative, im not sure how it applies to a school feeding its population tho as the alternative is malnourished children.

However if what you mean is money overall should be more efficiently spent to make the loss of educational funds through food programs less damning i agree.

One of the main problems is alot of american policy makers and education higher-ups are former teachers with the bias that working 20-30 years in any career inherently carries.

You wouldnt want 30 year cop veterans making law, why do we have teachers making education policies. Educational reform should be a career path largely devoid of teaching experience. Cost benefit and prioritization are better left to those who study only those subjects. Real world experience is great, but administration should be trained separately to deal with separate problems.

And again I read the ramblings that you pointed me to, and in a Utopia setting they might work but not in the real world Cam. the thing you have a hard time realizing is that we can't magically wipe the slate clean and start at zero. If we started your plan of privatized schools in a land where every neighborhood was equal crime rates were the same, drug abuse was equal, there was a perfect blending of all races and ethnicities. then things would be set up for your system to maybe work?

I still think that a educational system that follows a curriculum worked out to be the most beneficial for the education of the majority of the kids. If you privatize schools you leave the responsibility of funding squarely on the backs of the parents. Parents without jobs, are not going to be able to pay for their kids to go to school.

Those kids going to school today that are from low income families receive a free lunch, they usually also get a free breakfast item like a muffin or bowl of cereal. For a vast majority of these kids this is the only balanced meal they'll get in a day. And maybe the only food. If you take away public schools you are going to create a generation of malnurished children as well as uneducated.