I appreciate that

And I am not against efficiency, the playing field needs elevated. I've done my own research into the problem as far as looking into the alternatives, like merit-pay for teachers, charter schools, etc, and charter schools are hit or miss and can have some really weird indoctrination included, and merit-pay is very complicated and ultimately ends up punishing teachers who work with the students who need them the most.

The first time I went to college I was going to be a high school math teacher. Then I thought about it and realized that I didn't want to explain tough things to people who don't care about it for 30 or 40 years. Also, teachers are just so damn underpaid. I am sensitive to the argument that market mechanics ought to be a factor into teacher salary but I don't see a way to really do that besides solely selling education as a for-profit product with no public service, which is morally unconscionable.

We can look around the world at other societies and see how they do things and see the results they get. It is hard to find an example of a successful decentralized school system that the state is not involved in. Private schooling seems best when it is an option between that or a public school...if there was no baseline education to begin with education firms would be selling McRibs of education The for-profit higher education industry is a disaster and they fail to deliver the same education that public universities are able to..

I don't see a practical way of looking at it that supports your argument that privatizing schools would lead to higher quality. You say that capitalism leads to efficiency and cheap products, but I don't want a cheap education product, I want quality education to be available to me and my neighbor's children. Capitalism is great at mass producing lots and lots of crap for people to buy, but none of it is built to last anymore....and I want an educational system built to last.

I dont think thats the case of what would happen across the board, but it is surely the case of what could happen in some instances.

If there are contractual obligations for student performance and the market provided curriculum fails to reach those goals a new company would need to be found.

Look at how private prisons work, they have cheap guards and facilities but are mostly SUPER efficient. When one is found to be violating human rights they are usually either sanctioned or the company fold up and a new one takes its place.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Mar 11 2015 02:56pm

You posted no facts. In fact, you have no argument. You're attacking the system's inefficiencies as if I think all the system needs is more money. No, it needs to be run properly, but people who understand a school board or a police department needs to be properly funded and well governed to operate well. You conveniently ignore that part of my argument and juxtapose your argument that it's the public schools that are the problem with your fictitious belief that I think this is all about funding. No, we need to run public institutions properly and fund them well. People who are underpaid for the services they provide do bad jobs. Job pay is causally linked to job satisfaction, and a satisfied worker has higher levels of productivity. For essential services such as teaching and policing, this turns into poor service. It doesn't help that teachers and police officers aren't given the tools to improve either. Their training is meek, their support is minimal, and they are far too scrutinized. I

You keep looking at funding in poor and irrelevant manners, it doesn't matter about per pupil spending, it matters about neighbourhood, district and regional spending. Funds are not divided evenly in a city or a state. They're divided unevenly. I don't care that Detroit spends more, it's irrelevant. What matter is the spending is equal, as to not disadvantage anyone, and that we look at domestic governance issues instead of blaming the public sector. The private sector contributes to the stagnation of public schools by removing incentive to fund public schools.

Your blind hatred of public institutions is not rooted in fact, it's rooted in a terrible and maligned ideology that has never benefited society. The only thing close to a libertarian state in existence was the early 19th century night watchman British state. It was a horrible place to live, that was quickly changed. Libertarian ideals about the public sector are responsible for some of the worst financial crimes and collapses in history. The fastest growing economies in the history of the planet were command economies, Japan post-WW2 to the early 1980s, and China in the mid-1980s to essentially the last year or so. Statist, interventionist states are responsible for this worlds wealth. Libertarian anti-meritocratic systems are a path to ruin.

No....people are living in fenced in tent cities out west because the for-profit prisons are so overcrowded. Given the lopsided state of our criminal justice system, for-profit prisons amount to legalized slavery. They also require much more per inmate and offer much less in terms of service, particularly in guard training (which is important, check out the Stanford Prison Experiment), mental health services, and health care services.

At least if nobody is making money off inmates there is a real interest in rehabilitation and reducing recidivism, rather than the prison lobby paying politicians to block any meaningful criminal justice reform.

https://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/banking-bondage-private-prisons-and-mass-incarceration

https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights-prisoners-rights/nc-has-little-known-profit-prison-immigrants-aclu-investigation

This post was edited by Skinned on Mar 11 2015 03:26pm

Hahahahahah. No. Private prisons are terriblely inefficient. Not only do they offer less services which reduce recidivism, they still cost tax payers more even after getting to hand pick the best prisoners with least cost leaving the state with even higher perprisoner cost.

no. cost analysis of private vs public have never been done because the database for them to BE done doesn't exist. There is no way to accurately study it. any actual look at the system would tell you private prisons are more than likely cheaper.



As to the guard training and recidivism rate reducing program I truly have to just laugh. Programs to reduce recidivism run by the state are a common joke in my line of work. Private companies that are contracted by the state to run programs are the ONLY solution. How could I possibly know that? Because I work for one of those companies and I work in prisons.

It could easily be countered that the states were responsible for contractual failures by not requiring adequate housing with the prison companies they hired. Tent cities are indeed an atrocity but a single look at the history of prisons would show you tent cities exist in public and private prisons so they have no bearing on the discussion.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Mar 11 2015 04:13pm

Yeah. Plus, you can't reason with stupid.

There is nothing more annoying than the continuous repetition of this line.

No, perfect equality is not necessary for privatization, competition and efficiency measures to work. A ridiculous assertion.
Look at almost any other industry for an example. There are multitudes of different products available at different prices that are affordable for people in any range of wealth.

You simply don't understand the effects of market competition, incentives, and supply and demand and it warps your whole view of the situation.

As I believe I mentioned earlier, the real cost of public education is vastly higher than private schools right now.

From what I gather we all would agree most public schools for poor kids are dreadful right now.



And who decides what is "most beneficial" to mandate for everyone? some bureaucrat? perhaps a team of them?
This completely flies in the face of everything I said about one size not fitting all.
Trying different things for different people is incredibly beneficial and can suit the needs of children whose aptitudes and needs vastly differ.
From an ideological standpoint people believe in different things. A single government approved version of events, and a certain list of subjects taught in a certain way is not what is best for everyone or what the parents want taught to their kids.
School choice allows them to choose education that they think is best for them.

As it is now kids are often miserable and resentful towards their public schools they are mandated to go to with no real choice in many cases. Classes are boring and redundant and the pace does not fit every student.
The negative attitudes bred here discourage real education.
Real change is badly needed, not a universal copypasta of one of them or throwing more money at teacher's unions who resist every efficiency measure tooth and nail.


A ridiculous appeal to emotion about food is your big hold up about steps towards privatization of schools?
You really think private schools are just going to be like "fuck it we won't feed the kids" and the parents will send them there anyways?

Feeding the children is at the top of almost every parent and caretakers priorities. This is a primary responsibility of a parent.
They aren't going to starve to death if we open a path for more private schools...

Right now those 'balanced meals' are overwhelmingly despised and looked down upon in many cases. The food is picked over and thrown away.
The push to make them "healthy" while banning snacks and drinks the kids actually like hasn't made things better.

An overnight abolition of public schools isn't going to happen, nor is it necessary in order to implement pro-competition pro-choice reforms.
They can still go to schools with subsidized lunches if thats your big hold up.
Keep in mind there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The cries of a 'generation of kids' being malnourished and uneducated due to private schools is completely unfounded.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 11 2015 11:09pm

Careful what you wish for.

http://news.yahoo.com/st-louis-post-dispatch-2-officers-shot-ferguson-055552082.html



This post was edited by Santara on Mar 12 2015 04:22am