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Sep 9 2024 03:19pm
Quote (El1te @ Sep 9 2024 04:09pm)
USA industry has been gutted so it makes sense that Russia has an advantage in raw production power, they never got rid of their WWII-era rail supply & production system


And they never did that for national security reasons, even though they were broke as a joke after the collapse.
Meanwhile the United States shipped everything overseas to their adversary China, without so much as a thought about it.
Now they want to continue their monologue about disarming the people, so the United States itself can one day be completely defenseless.
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Sep 9 2024 03:25pm
Quote (PapaPsych @ Sep 9 2024 02:19pm)
And they never did that for national security reasons, even though they were broke as a joke after the collapse.
Meanwhile the United States shipped everything overseas to their adversary China, without so much as a thought about it.
Now they want to continue their monologue about disarming the people, so the United States itself can one day be completely defenseless.


Classic hubris on the part of the USA
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Sep 9 2024 05:02pm
Quote (PapaPsych @ 9 Sep 2024 23:05)
It's a straight up scam, what is needed is cost effective, mass produced weapons systems, which the United States does not have.
That's why Russia is able to bomb the hell out of Ukraine and the best the west can do is give them a rain check for some anti air missiles next year.


Quote (El1te @ 9 Sep 2024 23:09)
USA industry has been gutted so it makes sense that Russia has an advantage in raw production power, they never got rid of their WWII-era rail supply & production system


The United States military strategy is based around dominating the skies and the seas. In a direct, conventional confrontation between NATO and Russia, NATO would simply bomb their factories, railways and supply routes and their advantage in terms of artillery-based trench warfare would be moot.

The way this whole war has unfolded is predicated on Russia getting to fight it on its terms because Ukraine has neither a noteworthy airforce nor the cruise missiles to devastate Russia's arms production. Whenever Russia attempted anything but a static, positional war of attrition - for example in the early stages of this war when they tried complex open field maneuvers with combined arms - they failed miserably.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 9 2024 05:03pm
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Sep 9 2024 05:12pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 9 2024 04:02pm)
The United States military strategy is based around dominating the skies and the seas. In a direct, conventional confrontation between NATO and Russia, NATO would simply bomb their factories, railways and supply routes and their advantage in terms of artillery-based trench warfare would be moot.

The way this whole war has unfolded is predicated on Russia getting to fight it on its terms because Ukraine has neither a noteworthy airforce nor the cruise missiles to devastate Russia's arms production. Whenever Russia attempted anything but a static, positional war of attrition - for example in the early stages of this war when they tried complex open field maneuvers with combined arms - they failed miserably.


That is true, the naval and air superiority of the USA is generally enough power to trump long-term logistical concerns. The US Carrier Strike Group is the most powerful weapon, next to the nuclear bomb, that the world has ever seen.

However, and this is a big however, this can't be relied on absolutely. The Germans had the same idea behind their technological supremacy on the onset of the War, and while they initially succeeded very well, their superiority was still repelled and then the Axis lost primarily due to logistical reasons.

If the US Air Force is routed and if they could not maintain a Carrier Strike Group mooring off the coast, the game changes to logistics.

Russia does indeed dominate land warfare, they tightened up their military doctrine in WWII and Stalin was an artillery expert who dubbed it the God of war. They win in the gritty ground based war, I guess it is also worth noting that it is difficult for an air force to strike deep into Russia due to the sheer land mass & size, Germany had initial success there with the Luftwaffe but they too were routed, the failure to pass and control the Ural mountains was a logistical death blow
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Sep 9 2024 05:27pm
Quote (El1te @ 10 Sep 2024 01:12)
However, and this is a big however, this can't be relied on absolutely. The Germans had the same idea behind their technological supremacy on the onset of the War, and while they initially succeeded very well, their superiority was still repelled and then the Axis lost primarily due to logistical reasons.

At a fundamental level, the Nazis lost the war because a country of 70m simply cannot win 1v4 against two nations of 40m (UK and France), a nation of 150m with gigantic land mass and natural resources (USSR) and another huge-ass country of 125m with a modern industry (US). Particularly not when its allies were utterly useless.

The only way the Nazis could potentially have won that war is to force France to its knees quickly, capture Poland, not waste many resources on attacking the UK or its colonies in Africa, instead striking quicker and with more troops toward the Soviet Union, succeed with the decapitation strike on its capital Moscow in 1941, then consolidate the rest of Russia from there, particularly the oil fields of the Caucasus, while forcing Stalin and the Soviet arms industry to relocate behind the Urals. If things go well, isolationist sentiment in the US keeps them from declaring war on Germany in that scenario. Then consolidate power and resources in continental Europe for quite some years before brute forcing the invasion of the UK.

This would have set up a different kind of Cold War between the US and a Nazi-led Europe. And even in this scenario, it's questionable if Europe under the rule of genocidal maniacs would have been able to outcompete the US in the long run.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 9 2024 05:27pm
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Sep 9 2024 07:13pm
Quote (El1te @ Sep 9 2024 07:12pm)
That is true, the naval and air superiority of the USA is generally enough power to trump long-term logistical concerns. The US Carrier Strike Group is the most powerful weapon, next to the nuclear bomb, that the world has ever seen.

However, and this is a big however, this can't be relied on absolutely. The Germans had the same idea behind their technological supremacy on the onset of the War, and while they initially succeeded very well, their superiority was still repelled and then the Axis lost primarily due to logistical reasons.

If the US Air Force is routed and if they could not maintain a Carrier Strike Group mooring off the coast, the game changes to logistics.

Russia does indeed dominate land warfare, they tightened up their military doctrine in WWII and Stalin was an artillery expert who dubbed it the God of war. They win in the gritty ground based war, I guess it is also worth noting that it is difficult for an air force to strike deep into Russia due to the sheer land mass & size, Germany had initial success there with the Luftwaffe but they too were routed, the failure to pass and control the Ural mountains was a logistical death blow


Germany lost by way of economics. They lacked the material and human resources necessary to win. The United States won because it possessed the industrial and demographic might to bankroll one war while waging another. Conflicts can be mostly boiled down to the macro, the larger player wins.
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Sep 9 2024 11:42pm
Quote (El1te @ Sep 9 2024 10:01pm)
The Battle of Britain was an amazing display of fortitude which repelled the initial German assault.

However, if Britain was not an island, we would have been cooked. Due to this virtue, Germany was only able to conduct stage 1 of the blitzkrieg tactic which was an all out aerial assault. We were not as prepared as we could have been but we managed to repel them. However, if the US had not intervened later there is no doubt that Germany would have been able to enact Operation Sea Lion & take Britain. Britain's pants were down further than France's were, and France fell nigh-immediately to the blitzkrieg assault. But, while France was more prepared, they lacked the will to fight. We instead were less prepared but had a strong will to fight. Germany did not have enough time to plan, supply & enact Operation Sea Lion before the Japanese royally screwed them by attacking Pearl Harbour. American industrial might was of course crucial for a successful Operation Overlord.


False. No air superiority = no operation sea lion
This is not a disputable idea.

US industry and manpower no doubt played a huge role in the war, but played almost zero role in preventing great Britain's capitulation to the German military.
Which was sealed by 1941 after the Royal Air forces victory over the Lufttwaffe.
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Sep 10 2024 12:35am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 10 2024 01:27am)
At a fundamental level, the Nazis lost the war because a country of 70m simply cannot win 1v4 against two nations of 40m (UK and France), a nation of 150m with gigantic land mass and natural resources (USSR) and another huge-ass country of 125m with a modern industry (US). Particularly not when its allies were utterly useless.


True.

IMO attacking the USSR was the crucial mistake that cost Hitler the war.

The bulk of German manpower and resources were wasted there (insane numbers) and it gave the British time to rebuild their army that had been completely crushed in France where they had left all of their equipment behind (Dunkirk).
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