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teamsleep
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Oct 5 2021 02:26am
Topic.

Which is better for a pvm context and how much difference between the two bows in terms of pure dps?

I’ve seen both styles recommended in guides on the sites and on others, but I don’t know which I should go for and why?

Help is appreciated
PmP
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Oct 5 2021 02:37am
Depends on rest of gear and if you need ias or attack rating.

Faith on merc only gives you half the ed it would if you held it.

If you want damage a might merc > faith on a merc and you can put an obedience on him for even more damage.

That all once again depends on the rest of your gear and breakpoints. Also if you're strafe vs ms

This post was edited by PmP on Oct 5 2021 02:41am
Goomshill
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Oct 5 2021 03:20am
assuming you mean on a bowazon-

windforce on zon with faith merc is virtually always the correct answer for PvM. There are some other competitive options, using windforce merc with might/pride a2 merc gives you nearly as much raw DPS but at a slower attack speed (ie damage * frequency is the same, but frequency is slower). Reapers merc can be decent if you're doing a lot of telestomping monster packs with strafe instead of engaging them from a distance with multishot.
teamsleep
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Oct 5 2021 03:23am
Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 5 2021 05:20pm)
assuming you mean on a bowazon-

windforce on zon with faith merc is virtually always the correct answer for PvM. There are some other competitive options, using windforce merc with might/pride a2 merc gives you nearly as much raw DPS but at a slower attack speed (ie damage * frequency is the same, but frequency is slower). Reapers merc can be decent if you're doing a lot of telestomping monster packs with strafe instead of engaging them from a distance with multishot.


any idea what the deeps difference is if i just carry faith
Goomshill
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Oct 5 2021 03:38am
Quote (SponsoredGarlic @ Oct 5 2021 04:23am)
any idea what the deeps difference is if i just carry faith


a zon should have her other slots be a 120/45/20 circlet, enigma, atmas, laying of hands, razortail, war travs, ravenfrost, a fcr/leech ring and damage charms, and can generally hit up to 600 dexterity / 72% crit
that winds up being around +1070% ed (vs demons) and +80 avg damage

a 40/15 windforce + a1 faith merc, and faith shadow bow + a2 pride merc, both hit the 7 fpa breakpoint
windforce setup has 306 avg damage and +144% ed
shadow faith setup has 164 avg damage and +873% ed or so, and +120 fire damage

(306+80)*(1+10.7+1.44)*1.72*0.75 = 6543 avg for windforce
(164+80)*(1+10.7+8.73)*1.72*0.75 = 6431 avg for faith (also +90 fire nearly makes it equal)

However, the faith a1 merc hits like a truck, nearly as hard as your zon per arrow. The pride merc hits like a wet noodle (and can overwrite your amplify damage with its hit blinds target)
If you're using fortitude, instead of enigma, which you shouldn't, then the windforce scales even more by comparison because you're stacking more %ed
If you have nearby allies with their own concentration/might auras, the a2 merc does nothing. And windforce has very useful mana leech and knockback

This post was edited by Goomshill on Oct 5 2021 03:41am
teamsleep
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Oct 5 2021 03:40am
Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 5 2021 05:38pm)
a zon should have her other slots be a 120/45/20 circlet, enigma, atmas, laying of hands, razortail, war travs, ravenfrost, a fcr/leech ring and damage charms, and can generally hit up to 600 dexterity / 72% crit
that winds up being around +1070% ed (vs demons) and +80 avg damage

a 40/15 windforce + a1 faith merc, and faith shadow bow + a2 pride merc, both hit the 7 fpa breakpoint
windforce setup has 306 avg damage and +144% ed
shadow faith setup has 164 avg damage and +873% ed or so, and +120 fire damage

(306+80)*(1+10.7+1.44)*1.72*0.75 = 6543 avg for windforce
(164+80)*(1+10.7+8.73)*1.72*0.75 = 6431 avg for faith (also +90 fire nearly makes it equal)

However, the faith a1 merc hits like a truck, nearly as hard as your zon per arrow. The pride merc hits like a wet noodle
If you're using fortitude, instead of enigma, which you shouldn't, then the windforce scales even more by comparison because you're stacking more %ed
If you have nearby allies with their own concentration/might auras, the a2 merc does nothing. And windforce has very useful mana leech and knockback


Much appreciate
cantero
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Oct 5 2021 03:47am
Also, windforce is far far cheaper than faith atm in d2r.
Taurean
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Oct 5 2021 04:51am
Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Oct 2021 11:38)
a zon should have her other slots be a 120/45/20 circlet, enigma, atmas, laying of hands, razortail, war travs, ravenfrost, a fcr/leech ring and damage charms, and can generally hit up to 600 dexterity / 72% crit
that winds up being around +1070% ed (vs demons) and +80 avg damage

a 40/15 windforce + a1 faith merc, and faith shadow bow + a2 pride merc, both hit the 7 fpa breakpoint
windforce setup has 306 avg damage and +144% ed
shadow faith setup has 164 avg damage and +873% ed or so, and +120 fire damage

(306+80)*(1+10.7+1.44)*1.72*0.75 = 6543 avg for windforce
(164+80)*(1+10.7+8.73)*1.72*0.75 = 6431 avg for faith (also +90 fire nearly makes it equal)

However, the faith a1 merc hits like a truck, nearly as hard as your zon per arrow. The pride merc hits like a wet noodle (and can overwrite your amplify damage with its hit blinds target)
If you're using fortitude, instead of enigma, which you shouldn't, then the windforce scales even more by comparison because you're stacking more %ed
If you have nearby allies with their own concentration/might auras, the a2 merc does nothing. And windforce has very useful mana leech and knockback


The conc aura gives 285 - 345% ed, so the act 2 merc would be dealing as much as if the weapon had that ed on it, wouldn't he? And with fanaticism, more damage and he hits much faster.

But i agree on the blind target thing .. i vaguely remember that actually being somewhat of a hindrance at times, especially against bosses.

And i can't get over the thought of using enigma on a bowa over fortitude. Wouldn't that lower the damage a lot? Is the increased run speed and ability to teleport really that much more beneficial? For a javazon i can understand, but not a bowa...

The mana leech and knockback are weak mods that ml can be gotten on a rare ring and kb is not something i find worthwhile, and sometimes even a hindrance to progress and flow of gameplay ... it pushes monters back, and in that process sometimes makes arrows miss, because the zon may have fired an arrow before the kb occurs, then the arrow flies towards that spot, and the mosnter may have started walking and the arrow may miss. It is also unreliable, which is not in line with hardcore play.. If it was a 100% proc, then it would be something else.
Goomshill
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Oct 5 2021 05:12am
Quote (Taurean @ Oct 5 2021 05:51am)
The conc aura gives 285 - 345% ed, so the act 2 merc would be dealing as much as if the weapon had that ed on it, wouldn't he? And with fanaticism, more damage and he hits much faster.

But i agree on the blind target thing .. i vaguely remember that actually being somewhat of a hindrance at times, especially against bosses.

And i can't get over the thought of using enigma on a bowa over fortitude. Wouldn't that lower the damage a lot? Is the increased run speed and ability to teleport really that much more beneficial? For a javazon i can understand, but not a bowa...

The mana leech and knockback are weak mods that ml can be gotten on a rare ring and kb is not something i find worthwhile, and sometimes even a hindrance to progress and flow of gameplay ... it pushes monters back, and in that process sometimes makes arrows miss, because the zon may have fired an arrow before the kb occurs, then the arrow flies towards that spot, and the mosnter may have started walking and the arrow may miss. It is also unreliable, which is not in line with hardcore play.. If it was a 100% proc, then it would be something else.


a faith a1 merc hits at least 4k per arrow
even with something like +1250% ed, an ethereal polearm with only 15% ed tops caps out at something like 2000 damage and again has that huge issue where it overrides your amp damage with dim vision- except against bosses, who are immune to dim vision but not amp.
the rule for enigma is you always use enigma. goes for almost every build, bowazon included

you can get ML on other sources like ring sure, but its handy anyway, and knockback is something you almost always want since it puts monsters into hit recovery. You should be doing enough damage you'll never push monsters out of range or anything else inconvenient, it just keeps them more or less stuck. Besides, it only applies to the middle 2 arrows of multishot not the whole fan, so it usually is only pushing back the monsters directly in front of you / closest who have gotten close enough to interrupt you.
Taurean
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Oct 5 2021 05:48am
Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Oct 2021 13:12)
a faith a1 merc hits at least 4k per arrow
even with something like +1250% ed, an ethereal polearm with only 15% ed tops caps out at something like 2000 damage and again has that huge issue where it overrides your amp damage with dim vision- except against bosses, who are immune to dim vision but not amp.
the rule for enigma is you always use enigma. goes for almost every build, bowazon included

you can get ML on other sources like ring sure, but its handy anyway, and knockback is something you almost always want since it puts monsters into hit recovery. You should be doing enough damage you'll never push monsters out of range or anything else inconvenient, it just keeps them more or less stuck. Besides, it only applies to the middle 2 arrows of multishot not the whole fan, so it usually is only pushing back the monsters directly in front of you / closest who have gotten close enough to interrupt you.


Act 2 merc hits much faster though.. and I use strafe ^^

But I see there is things to try here. Saved this thread for later.
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