https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/us/atomwaffen-kaleb-cole.html

Seattle officials used a new Red Flag law to raid the house of an Atomwaffen Division leader a few weeks ago and seize all his guns.
They had no complaint or threat reported from any individual as cause, and the city officials themselves filed the red flag order and seized weapons on the same day, based solely on his political speech and association. No charges were ever filed against him, no evidence he broke any laws. Their court order cited that he "identified himself as an Atomwaffen member who had fascist ideology and that he had been carrying the group’s flag".
Under this red flag law, there's no due process, no right to an attorney, no way to recoup lawyer's costs even if you successfully defend yourself, no right to face your accuser, the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove his innocence and you only get a single hearing that takes place after the sentence is carried out, with no means to appeal and no jury of your peers. The 'one year seizure' can be renewed indefinitely to deprive you of your rights for the rest of your life.

This marks the first known case where a red flag law has been filed by the government solely on the basis of someone's ideology. A bit like skipping straight from banning Huckleberry Finn to throwing Solzhenitsyn into the Gulag
Will this wind up a test for society, or will we plow right over it and accept it as the new norm?

While this guy does look like a nut case to me... I don't think it's right to infringe on someone's right to bear arms, just because he MAY commit a crime in the future.
Unlike the movie: Minority Report, we don't HAVE devices which assure us of someone's future actions.

Substituting dislike of someone's ideology for the Laws in this country, is a slippery slope we definitely don't need to start down.










/e It's almost like the left doesn't care about the US Constitution.

This post was edited by Ghot on Oct 17 2019 10:13pm

I've never heard of this group. Does the FBI designate them as a terrorist group? If so, I could understand how being affiliated with the group would be a problem. It's no different than someone being a member of ISIS.

Having said that, the threshold should be a little higher IMO (imminent threat sort of thing).

There's no such thing as a domestic terrorist group designation because that would be blatantly unconstitutional. But then again, so is this. Maybe in the future the government will keep lists of terrorist ideologies and if you affiliate with them or express sympathy for them online, the G-men will show up to your house and haul you away in the middle of the night.

In a world where the first amendment still exists, the government can't regulate people's ideological beliefs and political affiliations. They can however regulate international commerce and material support for foreign organizations, because the federal government has sovereign jurisdiction over international diplomacy. For the government to start saying that domestic political affiliations are grounds for deprivation of rights, is the most slippery slope imaginable. This isn't about just tearing down the 2nd amendment, its about tearing down the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th and the 7th. All that's missing is for Seattle to start quartering soldiers in the guy's home.

Hurr durr why would ordinary people need guns?



How do you prove affiliation without due process?

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Oct 17 2019 10:36pm

To protect themselves from red flag enthusiasts.



Is it any coincidence that China's flag is... red? I think not.

Ah, I finally understand what they meant by red flag laws
Time to put all Atomwaffen supporters into reeducation camps, blindfold them and shave their heads

Yep, yep. Without due process... we might as well BE China. :/

Dude, STFU. Goomshill can have a legitimate discussion when it comes to civil rights. If this was someone of Arabic descent or something, you'd be all for this. Go fuck off oath breaker.