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Nov 12 2019 04:12am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 12 Nov 2019 11:03)
With the exception of the "selling out to China" item, all the things I listed have been espoused by the more leftist candidates of the Democratic primary - on live television during their primary debates.


The candidates who are more economically to the left in this field (Warren, Bernie) have said that they would abolish private health insurance, which of course does amount to kicking those people who currently have a private plan off of their plan. Bernie has openly admitted that his version of medicareforall would include raising taxes on the middle class. Warren refuses to acknowledge that she would also have to raise middle class taxes, but even other Democratic candidates (Biden, Buttigieg) say she's lying about that. Are Biden and Buttigieg also just spouting "right wing spin, sponsored and perpetuated by big pharma"?

The candidates who are more socially to the left in this field (Beto, Castro) have said that they support decriminalizing illegal border crossings, several of them (including Bernie) have called for abolishing ICE altogether. They have mused about gun grabbing (Beto: "hell yes, we're gonna take their guns") and free abortions for transgender women (Castro). Furthermore, they have talked about divise stuff like reparations (Warren, Bernie, Beto and Castro as well iirc), they have talked about enforcing race-mixing in schools via busing, whether the parents like it or not (Harris), they have taken an uncritical pro-#blacklivesmatter and pro-#metoo stance.



The only thing egregious is that you unironically claim that all those things he Democratic candidates for president have said on live television dont exist.


Beto on live TV in front an audience of millions: "hell yes, we're gonna take their guns".
Fender: "... egregious claims about 'confiscating guns'... interesting what you hacks unashamedly label as factual". :rofl: :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vEnTjs2RV0


beto dropped out of the race, and he never had significant support - so what's your excuse for pretending that's a position that non-establishment democrats would run on? oh right, there is no reasonable justification for that, it's pure dishonest right wing propaganda - just like all your other gross misrepresentations of left wing policies.

again, you're like one of ghot's terrible memes come to life...
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Nov 12 2019 04:15am
Quote (fender @ Nov 12 2019 06:06am)
you not being able to distinguish between 'erasing facts' and 'looking at a policy as a whole, and not just single aspects in order to discredit it' doesn't mean it's not a blatant misrepresentation, or even a contradiction. thanks for proving my point about you not being smart enough to do that.

fox news propagandist exposed again.



Falsely claiming i can't distinguish between things is not a refutation of fact.
I fully recognize you are a salty little bitch that is upset someone dared to characterize regressive left policies in an unflattering light and you would prefer to reframe the issues with rosy language and noble goals (without ever stopping to consider why people oppose those policies, or if they actually would achieve those goals and without significant drawbacks)

Stating facts about democrat policies you dont like doesnt make them 'moronic misrepresentations' and 'not actual policies'.
Shilling for leftists and crying doesn't change that. Having a temper tantrum and denying facts doesn't change it either.

Sub 80 soyboy thinks everyone who doesn't agree with his delusions and left wing extremism is a fox news propagandist. LOL

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Nov 12 2019 04:17am
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Nov 12 2019 04:15am
Quote (fender @ 12 Nov 2019 11:12)
beto dropped out of the race, and he never had significant support - so what's your excuse for pretending that's a position that non-establishment democrats would run on? oh right, there is no reasonable justification for that, it's pure dishonest right wing propaganda - just like all your other gross misrepresentations of left wing policies.

again, you're like one of ghot's terrible memes come to life...


I mentioned a ton of other positions from my list which are held and promoted by leading candidates who are still in the race, particularly Warren, Bernie and (to a lesser extent) Harris.


One more thing: Warren and Bernie have clearly stated that they want to abolish private health insurance. How do you think the transition from the current system to their medicare4all system should work without having to indeed "kick people off their current, private plans" at some point?

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 12 2019 04:17am
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Nov 12 2019 04:27am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 12 Nov 2019 11:15)
I mentioned a ton of other positions from my list which are held and promoted by leading candidates who are still in the race, particularly Warren, Bernie and (to a lesser extent) Harris.


One more thing: Warren and Bernie have clearly stated that they want to abolish private health insurance. How do you think the transition from the current system to their medicare4all system should work without having to indeed "kick people off their current, private plans" at some point?


learn to read:

Quote
it's a misrepresentation that democrats run on 'kicking people off their healthcare plan' - that's a right wing spin, generously sponsored and perpetuated by big pharma and the insurance industry.
meanwhile in reality, the goal is affordable healthcare (that will not only cost less than the current system overall, but will also prevent people from going bankrupt or even dying because they can't afford treatment) for everybody. you hacks focusing exclusively on ONE aspect of their policy, in order to fearmonger about it, is simply dishonest and misleading. most people are smarter than you, and able to figure that out.


and yes, biden and buttigieg are most definitely sponsored by big pharma and the insurance industry, they are exactly the kind of shitty establishment candidates that rahm emanuel, the guy constantly shitting on warren & sanders (the candidates i'm arguing on behalf of, because they are the relevant lefties with realistic chances to run against trump, which was the whole premise of this argument - another reason why you misrepresenting beto's positions as those of 'the left' was shitty and dishonest) supports:

https://www.opensecrets.org/

This post was edited by fender on Nov 12 2019 04:31am
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Nov 12 2019 04:37am
Quote (fender @ 12 Nov 2019 11:27)
lit's a misrepresentation that democrats run on 'kicking people off their healthcare plan' - that's a right wing spin, generously sponsored and perpetuated by big pharma and the insurance industry.
meanwhile in reality, the goal is affordable healthcare (that will not only cost less than the current system overall, but will also prevent people from going bankrupt or even dying because they can't afford treatment) for everybody. you hacks focusing exclusively on ONE aspect of their policy, in order to fearmonger about it, is simply dishonest and misleading. most people are smarter than you, and able to figure that out.


We focus on the one aspect of their poliy that would be guaranteed and be a huge downside for everyone affected by it, while you focus on the other aspects which are hypothetical and up in the air.

Causing people to lose their current healthcare on the promise and hope that you can provide them with something better IS a big ask.
Similarly, proposing a policy that will come with a guaranteed tax hike on the middle class and the hope that the benefits of this policy will more than make up for this tax hike (leaving people better off on balance) does require a big leap of faith.

I really dont get why you have so much trouble understanding why many people are wary of such policies.



Btw, you still havent adressed the fact that those "shitty status quo candidates" won the House and lots of state legislatures for Democrats in 2018 and 2019.
The faction saying "we must run on moderation and kitchen table issues" has very recent electoral successes to support their view.
Which electoral successes can the other side point to, the side that says "we must run far to the left, promoting an agenda of big, sweeping changes to the whole society and economy"?

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 12 2019 04:38am
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Nov 12 2019 04:47am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 12 Nov 2019 11:37)
We focus on the one aspect of their poliy that would be guaranteed and be a huge downside for everyone affected by it, while you focus on the other aspects which are hypothetical and up in the air.

Causing people to lose their current healthcare on the promise and hope that you can provide them with something better IS a big ask.
Similarly, proposing a policy that will come with a guaranteed tax hike on the middle class and the hope that the benefits of this policy will more than make up for this tax hike (leaving people better off on balance) does require a big leap of faith.

I really dont get why you have so much trouble understanding why many people are wary of such policies.



Btw, you still havent adressed the fact that those "shitty status quo candidates" won the House and lots of state legislatures for Democrats in 2018 and 2019.
The faction saying "we must run on moderation and kitchen table issues" has very recent electoral successes to support their view.
Which electoral successes can the other side point to, the side that says "we must run far to the left, promoting an agenda of big, sweeping changes to the whole society and economy"?


you pretending that people would be kicked off their insurance even if they didn't introduce medicare for all (probably because it's just a hobby of 'the left' to do that, because they really only want to hurt people i guess?!) just perfectly illustrates how dishonest (or ignorant) you are. you portray the negative as a given while claiming the positive is just a pipe dream, when in reality the one wouldn't even occur without the other.

you know why people are 'wary'? because of disgusting hacks like you misrepresenting the issue in order to fearmonger about policies. how does it feel to be a tool for big pharma?
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Nov 12 2019 04:51am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 12 2019 04:37am)
We focus on the one aspect of their poliy that would be guaranteed and be a huge downside for everyone affected by it, while you focus on the other aspects which are hypothetical and up in the air.

Causing people to lose their current healthcare on the promise and hope that you can provide them with something better IS a big ask.
Similarly, proposing a policy that will come with a guaranteed tax hike on the middle class and the hope that the benefits of this policy will more than make up for this tax hike (leaving people better off on balance) does require a big leap of faith.

I really dont get why you have so much trouble understanding why many people are wary of such policies.



Btw, you still havent adressed the fact that those "shitty status quo candidates" won the House and lots of state legislatures for Democrats in 2018 and 2019.
The faction saying "we must run on moderation and kitchen table issues" has very recent electoral successes to support their view.
Which electoral successes can the other side point to, the side that says "we must run far to the left, promoting an agenda of big, sweeping changes to the whole society and economy"?


Only requires a leap of faith if you ignore estimates from even the most conservative groups that say it would save a trillion over 10 years. With a national system we can quibble about what style would be best but we can be very certain at this point that just about any system is better than what we have now.

Inb4 wait times that dont affect outcomes

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Nov 12 2019 04:57am
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Nov 12 2019 04:57am
I guess we'll just continue to disagree on healthcare...



Fender, I'll reiterate my other point though: Democratic candidates running on moderation and kitchen table issues scored a lot of big wins in 2018 and 2019. Can you point to any big wins in actual elections by Democratic candidates who were running to the left, running on big, sweeping changes to the society and/or the economy?

I'm asking because you keep on insisting that the latter approach is the more electorally promising one in 2020, while all the recent data points in the opposite direction and supports the arguments of Rahm Emanuel.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 12 2019 04:58am
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Nov 12 2019 05:13am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Nov 12 2019 06:51am)
Only requires a leap of faith if you ignore estimates from even the most conservative groups that say it would save a trillion over 10 years. With a national system we can quibble about what style would be best but we can be very certain at this point that just about any system is better than what we have now.


This is what was included in the study you are referring to:

Quote
The leading current bill to establish single-payer health insurance, the Medicare for All Act (M4A), would, under conservative estimates, increase federal budget commitments by approximately $32.6 trillion during its first 10 years of full implementation (2022–2031), assuming enactment in 2018. This projected increase in federal healthcare commitments would equal approximately 10.7 percent of GDP in 2022, rising to nearly 12.7 percent of GDP in 2031 and further thereafter. Doubling all currently projected federal individual and corporate income tax collections would be insufficient to finance the added federal costs of the plan

It is likely that the actual cost of M4A would be substantially greater than these estimates, which assume significant administrative and drug cost savings under the plan, and also assume that healthcare providers operating under M4A will be reimbursed at rates more than 40 percent lower than those currently paid by private health insurance.


Quote
Again,this is an aggressive estimate of administrative savings that is more likely to lead to M4A costs being underestimated than overestimated.


Quote
Current administrative cost rates for Medicare as a whole are cited as being roughly 4
percent, though closer to 6 percent for Medicare Advantage.38 It is unlikely that the population
now privately insured could be covered by M4A with administrative costs as low as 4 percent.
Administrative cost rates are calculated as a percentage of total insurance costs, and these total
costs per capita under private insurance are currently less than half of what they are in
Medicare.39 In other words, one reason Medicare’s administrative cost rates appear to be so
much lower than private insurance rates is that they are expressed as percentages of Medicare’s
overall per capita costs, which are much higher


Quote
Moreover, even if administrative cost rates could be lowered by more than seven percentage points, there would be offsetting cost increases. A further reason private insurance
administrative costs are relatively higher is the necessity of policing fraudulent or other improper payments
to ensure an insurer’s continued solvency and to provide competitive value to its customers.



Quote
Beyond this, other policy and political dynamics of federally administered insurance should tend to increase total costs. This is evident in the text of the M4A bill, which, among its
other provisions, includes a line item authorizing expenditures of up to 1 percent of the total national health budget during its first five years for “programs providing assistance to workers
who perform functions in the administration of the health insurance system and who may experience economic dislocation as a result of the implementation of this Act.”42 The policy and
political dynamics that gave rise to this proposed spending program would likely give rise to others in the course of enacting and implementing M4A, reducing net savings from lowered administrative costs.


Quote
One striking finding evident in the table is that, even under the assumption that provider payments for treating patients now covered by private insurance are reduced by over 40 percent, aggregate health
expenditures remain virtually unchanged: national personal healthcare costs decrease by less than 2 percent, while total health expenditures decrease by only 4 percent, even after assuming
substantial administrative cost savings. The additional healthcare demand that arises from eliminating copayments, providing additional categories of benefits, and covering the currently
uninsured nearly offsets potential savings associated with cutting provider payments and achieving lower drug costs. Thus, the essential expenditure change wrought by movement to a
single-payer system would be to replace private spending on healthcare with government spending financed by taxpayers.46 At the same time, more generous healthcare insurance would
be provided to everyone at the expense of healthcare providers, who would face reimbursements substantially below their service costs. As noted previously, whether providers could sustain
such losses and remain in operation, and how those who continue operations would adapt to such dramatic payment reductions, are critically important questions.


While these estimates show little net change in NHE, the same cannot be said of the projected effects on the federal budget. Table 2 includes an estimate for the net increase in federal health budget commitments of $32.6 trillion from 2022 through 2031, which, by itself, is more than all federal individual and corporate income taxes projected to be collected during that time period.


So yes if you assume its perfectly successful according to plan, use a very conservative estimate of government spending whom we know have a reputation for spending going way over budget, and ignore the effects of what actually happens when you slash payment by 40% you can come up with a 'savings' of 1 trillion over 10 years!

And its even a conservative group saying it!

Bulletproof plan that everyone should support and not question! Silly freedom loving plebs!

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Nov 12 2019 05:17am
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Nov 12 2019 05:17am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Nov 12 2019 06:13am)
This is what was included in the study you are referring to:














So yes if you assume its perfectly successful according to plan, use a very conservative estimate of government spending whom we know have a reputation for costs way over budget, and ignore the effects of what actually happens when you slash payment by 40% you can come up with a 'savings' of 1 trillion over 10 years!

And its even from a conservative group saying it!

Bulletproof plan that everyone should support and not question! Silly freedom loving plebs!


How can we have a market solution with all the bad actors we have now?

If your idea works...Anthem, Humana, Aetna, etc, will have to stop denying people medical services they need and they won't because that is the source of their profit and they are for profit.

How do we solve this greed problem with for profit insurance?

I'm curious as to what an answer would be.

We won't survive between Anthem needing to pay its exec's and the baby boomers who have set up a political system to funnel money to them at our expense.

This post was edited by Skinned on Nov 12 2019 05:18am
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