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Oct 24 2017 01:31pm
Quote (datajunky @ Oct 24 2017 07:26pm)
It's a great replacement for currency, but it needs some scaling issues resolved by consensus first before it can take on more users efficiently. Until that happens, it's still the world's largest supercomputer, and the world's safest network and store of value. It's way better than gold in that aspect, and it's also the biggest social experiment ever created. There's so much hidden value in the bitcoin blockchain that price speculation is almost always undervalued.

To me personally, I see bitcoin as a secure store of value. Better than any traditional investment in the markets today.


In no way is BTC ready as a replacement for a currency. The decentralized part is nice until you notice how much power/money a transaction starts to cost. Yes, brokers like Coinbase can mitigate those transaction problems but in that case you're just trusting centralized trading again. The current speed of transactions for BTC is so horrendously slow there are several orders of magnitude between it and let's say, VISA.

Bitcoin is a far less secure store of value than real estate, bonds or other safe stuff.
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Oct 24 2017 03:22pm
bitcoin fanboys always make me laugh. one of the biggest regrets i have is not farming bc when i could, i chose to mass bot d2 instead lol. also had an option to majorly buy in at the same time, and passed. bought a small amount which i still have just for fun.

part of me thing fanboys are just trying to drum up demand so they have some actual liquidity. hearing people say that btc is a better investment than bonds or stocks is pretty laughable. please put in all you money, gl getting it back.
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Oct 24 2017 04:55pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 24 2017 05:22pm)
bitcoin fanboys always make me laugh. one of the biggest regrets i have is not farming bc when i could, i chose to mass bot d2 instead lol. also had an option to majorly buy in at the same time, and passed. bought a small amount which i still have just for fun.

part of me thing fanboys are just trying to drum up demand so they have some actual liquidity. hearing people say that btc is a better investment than bonds or stocks is pretty laughable. please put in all you money, gl getting it back.


Bitcoin is very liquid for a small fee.
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Oct 25 2017 11:10am
Quote (Voyaging @ Oct 24 2017 05:55pm)
Bitcoin is very liquid for a small fee.


These guys don't understand bitcoin. It's like anything else they don't understand, they misrepresent facts and misconstrue the larger image into a blurred presentation of basterdized truth which suits their regrets perfectly.

Bitcoin is the free market that civilisation has always strived for.
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Oct 25 2017 11:17am
Quote (datajunky @ Oct 25 2017 05:10pm)
These guys don't understand bitcoin. It's like anything else they don't understand, they misrepresent facts and misconstrue the larger image into a blurred presentation of basterdized truth which suits their regrets perfectly.

Bitcoin is the free market that civilisation has always strived for.


Bitcoin is already requiring the energy production of a small country (Ecuador). Annual electricity consumption of 22.71 TWh. That's no joke and in no way sustainable, especially as complexity keeps increasing.

To put the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network into perspective we can compare it to another payment system like VISA for example. Even though the available information on VISA’s energy consumption is limited, we can establish that the data centers that process VISA’s transactions consume energy equal to that of 50,000 U.S. households. We also know VISA processed 82.3 billion transactions in 2016. With the help of these numbers, it is possible to compare both networks and show that Bitcoin is extremely more energy intensive per transaction than VISA.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
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Oct 25 2017 01:46pm
Those digging for gold during the rush did not get rich. Those selling the shovels did.

Thank you NVidia and AMD.

I have a bit in litecoin, ethereum and bitcoin as well as a few shares of GBTC stock.

Part of me wants to get out, but part of me is curious of the long game. There's zero doubt in my mind that two things are true:

1. Blockchain technology is the future. If it's bitcoin or another, I don't know.
2. ICOs are an absolute scam, but I invest in them and get out quickly while the hype is up. Most are a fugazi.

This post was edited by AspenSniper on Oct 25 2017 01:49pm
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Oct 25 2017 10:19pm
Quote (balrog66 @ Oct 25 2017 12:17pm)
Bitcoin is already requiring the energy production of a small country (Ecuador). Annual electricity consumption of 22.71 TWh. That's no joke and in no way sustainable, especially as complexity keeps increasing.

To put the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network into perspective we can compare it to another payment system like VISA for example. Even though the available information on VISA’s energy consumption is limited, we can establish that the data centers that process VISA’s transactions consume energy equal to that of 50,000 U.S. households. We also know VISA processed 82.3 billion transactions in 2016. With the help of these numbers, it is possible to compare both networks and show that Bitcoin is extremely more energy intensive per transaction than VISA.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


That's proof of work. Just another reason why it's a better store of value than anything we've ever encountered. The cost may be high but the value must be preserved and protected properly.

Quote (balrog66 @ Oct 24 2017 02:31pm)
In no way is BTC ready as a replacement for a currency. The decentralized part is nice until you notice how much power/money a transaction starts to cost. Yes, brokers like Coinbase can mitigate those transaction problems but in that case you're just trusting centralized trading again. The current speed of transactions for BTC is so horrendously slow there are several orders of magnitude between it and let's say, VISA.

Bitcoin is a far less secure store of value than real estate, bonds or other safe stuff.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-25/nyus-dean-valuation-bitcoins-not-fraud-its-currency
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Oct 27 2017 12:19pm
Quote (balrog66 @ Oct 25 2017 10:17am)
Bitcoin is already requiring the energy production of a small country (Ecuador). Annual electricity consumption of 22.71 TWh. That's no joke and in no way sustainable, especially as complexity keeps increasing.

To put the energy consumed by the Bitcoin network into perspective we can compare it to another payment system like VISA for example. Even though the available information on VISA’s energy consumption is limited, we can establish that the data centers that process VISA’s transactions consume energy equal to that of 50,000 U.S. households. We also know VISA processed 82.3 billion transactions in 2016. With the help of these numbers, it is possible to compare both networks and show that Bitcoin is extremely more energy intensive per transaction than VISA.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


To be fair, the mining energy consumption has nothing to do with the design of the system itself. In theory, you could operate the network just as efficiently with a single Dell running in some mom's basement (from a computational power standpoint without considering network traffic, security, proof of work, outages, etc). The mining difficulty scales up and down to keep the rate of new blocks constant, so the number of miners (and their energy consumption) is determined by economic factors. As long as it remains profitable to convert electricity into bitcoin, people will keep doing it, but the system balances itself. As more people start mining complexity increases and makes it less profitable to mine, so some people stop mining. You end up reaching an equilibrium for any given price of bitcoin and kWh, regardless of how many people are actually using the system to pay. The only exception is bounties, since more users means more transaction bounty, which would increase the value of mining beyond just the value of the block bitcoin reward and bring in some more miners.

You could argue that it's not good for the world as a whole that we are burning energy on this, but if that's the angle then you have much bigger fish to fry. For example, we could walk and use bicycles instead of driving cars. In the US alone, the annual energy cost of gasoline in 2012 was about 1,100 TWh (source: http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2014/05/02/electric_vehicles_how_much_energy_would_we_need_to_fuel_them.html). USA is responsible for about 40% of the world's gasoline consumption, so we can estimate the annual global cost at about 2,500 TWh.

And of course bitcoin is NOT a safe investment by any means. Most of the value is still speculation, and it's very volatile. A completely unpredictable event, like a newly found exploit being used to steal a large sum, could easily crash the value. There may also be significant technological advances that give a competing currency enough of an advantage to take over as the go-to crypto, causing bitcoin's value to decline over time as people abandon it. Something like Ethereum, for example. The blockchain technology will almost certainly thrive, but not necessarily in the current incarnation.

Quote (datajunky @ Oct 25 2017 09:19pm)
That's proof of work. Just another reason why it's a better store of value than anything we've ever encountered. The cost may be high but the value must be preserved and protected properly.


The energy put into bitcoin mining is completely wasted, it has no actual value on its own. You can't recover it to do useful work, so what you said makes no sense. By your logic, investing in incandescent bulbs is a great idea because they burn a shitload of energy.



This post was edited by russian on Oct 27 2017 12:24pm
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