Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Yeah see? Now you're getting it! Once the assumption was made that Luke was referring to Mary's genealogy then it made sense. Surely that is what he was referring to because it makes sense. You would be surprised at how many readers believe that Luke 3 is recording Mary's genealogy. You explain all of this to them and it makes sense. It is like putting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together, we have Joseph betrothed to Mary and the genealogy in among all of that. Line up all of the puzzle pieces and boom, you can easily work out that Matthew is going through the line of Joseph and Luke is going through the line of Mary.
Reading God's word shouldn't be like putting a jigsaw together, especially when it comes to such a simple thing as a genealogy. I don't get a thing because the genealogies are contradictory. Mary is not mentioned in the genealogy, she is not mentioned in Luke 3. There is no way, no way, that if you were to read Luke 3 that you would somehow think that it is Mary's genealogy. There is no way - you must read Matthew 1, then take away Joseph being the son of Heli, or assume it means son-in-law, or legal son or whatever, and then you have to add Mary's name in there, so as to show that clearly Joseph is the legal son of Heli or show their connection. But Mary's name isn't there. The apologetics explanation is ridiculous, and you know that as well. You would never accept such far-fetched explanations for any other religion. If you found such mistakes in the Quran you would discard it, not trying to make it fit with the help of acrobatics and absurd assumptions.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Look at Luke 3:23 as that bible verse gives the name of Mary's father.
Why do you lie? Seriously this is extremely dishonest. I know why you didn't post the Bible verse, here it is:
Luke 3:23
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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luke 3:22-24
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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Nowhere is Mary's name mentioned, check the chapter. Don't come with; "genealogies were given through males only", because that isn't true; Matthew mentions several women actually - but not Mary, neither do Luke. Both are trying to show that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah by tracing the genealogy from Jesus to Joseph, to King David. Because tribal affiliation came only through the father; not the mother; Numbers 1:18 reads: And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families,
by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
Since Jesus had no earthly father, he cannot be from the tribe of Judah biologically. And he branch of David that would spring up would come at a time when Judah would be saved and Israel dwell safely (that was not the case, neither at Jesus time or after, not even today they do live in complete safety). Let's look at Jeremiah:
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1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
As you can see, this prophecy is clearly not about Jesus.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Was I also meant to post verse 13 and highlight "I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever"? How can you establish a throne with somebody who lives and dies? Yet Jesus lives forever and so his throne is established forever. Oh I wouldn't underestimate Israel, God's chosen Nation. They were very powerful as they conquered other nations as they had God on their side. Their inevitable downfall was their sin. They aroused the LORD's anger and so they became divided and eventually exiled. If you read the book of Judges then you will see the downward spiral. It is a never ending cycle of sin.
But there was no king of Judah sitting upon the throne constantly. That is not what i meant, here you can find better answers to this question:
https://outreachjudaism.org/why-doesnt-judaism-have-a-king/Israel's downfall was their sin but it is not a never ending cycle of sin as you say it, it is the story of restoration and relapse into sin; the Jewish people returned to the Holy land after repentance. They didn't conquer nations to expand land they destroyed their enemies who hated them, when God was on their side.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Must you be told everything plainly and simply? Are you unable to make assumptions based on what is happening in the story? Don't you read a book and predict what is going to happen or work out who the real Father is in the plot twist? Are you seriously telling me that you can't join the dots and work it all out? I just can't understand how you can't see it. You don't want to.
Of course I work it through when reading books, and sure I make assumptions, but not when I read about facts, especially not a book claimed to be written by the hand of God. Then the facts and the details must make sense, and they cannot contradict each other. And its not a small contradiction; it is totally way off the mark. That is why its been an ongoing embarassment to the Church ever since Christianity was born. There is a reason why Christianity never convinced the Jewish people - because the Jewish people are studious, they read the Torah (the books of Moses), and the prophets, and they will not abandon their whole life in order to accept a new religion if the new religion's book contains errors on almost every page.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Who else could Luke possibly be referring to? Is there some third person whom I've missed? I see that Joseph marries Mary and the inheritance is applied here as told in the OT. If there is no other explanation then why are you over complicating it? I can't understand why you cannot see it, unless you are under the influence of Isaiah 6:9-10. That is an assumption that would also explain these things.
Matthew 1:16 and Luke 3:23. Read the inheritance verses again. I'm sure you know where to find them.
How would you even know about this issue being debated if it has not been exposed to the public? It was the Christians who saw that the young generation couldn't read or write and so they decided to do something about it. It is thanks to the Christians that every child in this day and age goes to School and learn. The difference between your analogy and The Bible's is that The Bible has proof and records behind it. You just pulled those phrases from out of thin air. Who would do such a thing? The genealogies are simple, with a lot of explanation behind them. Yet, for some strange reason, you are over complicating it.
You're a spineless hypocrit and a deceiving coward who can't even admit that the genealogies are in no way making sense, and that you have to make a blind assumption without any clear proof that Heli is Mary's father. It's not mentioned anywhere. Yet you write as if the matters are all clear and solid, perhaps hoping that the few people who reads this will not check the facts. You love Christianity more than truth, Jesus more than facts.
The NT writers had to make Jesus a son of a virgin because that was the NORM for the other pagan gods. And there are no "A virgin shall conceive"-prophecies in the Old Testament - in the original. But Matthew and the other gospel writers translated from greek and the greek translator had mistranslated "young woman" into virgin in Isaiah. So there you can see - it was a huge mistake by the authors, who did not read the original Hebrew Bible as was written by Moses, but they read a mistranslation, and so they made Jesus a virgin born son, and by doing this they complicated stuff incredibly much; because they had to show that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, and the only way he could be so was if he was from the tribe of his father.
I am not complicating it I'm asking you to clearly show in Luke 3 or Matthew 1 where Mary is mentioned. Her genealogy is not mentioned, period. You are lying, its lies lies lies, this is the case every time you discuss with an apologetic for Christianity. Are you people so mentally weak that you cannot discuss this honestly? Do you have to be like hysterical little children covering up the lies and hiding the truth, just becaaaaaaaaaaause it would be sooooo painful to know that Jesus is just the mythical figure of a bunch of semipagan apostate Jews?
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Don't you realize that The Bible was inspired by God? Do you not read all those verses where it says "Here is what the LORD says to me" or "This is what the LORD says." Do you also not believe what Moses and the Prophets wrote down?
I believe the Old Testament, yes, and I believe that Moses and the other prophets were inspired. But I don't agree about the New Testament. Christianity is a pagan fake religion.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Yeah of course the genealogy is referring to Mary when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together. You must be a food not to understand...Really.
No - you have to guess. You have no idea who Mary's father was. You assume it's Heli but nowhere does it say so; it only says Heli was Joseph's father. The word of God is not pieces of puzzle to put together. When God speaks, you will understand. God doesn't have Aspergers syndrome.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Did you read them on your own without anybody else? You don't read with a Bible study group? That definitely explains a lot. I can give you a lot of Bible verses to read over. Here are a few for you to ponder over:
Romans 1:21-25
Psalm 118:22
Psalm 14:1
Luke 13:1-9
Why exactly are you posting Psalm 14:1 to me? I am not an atheist, I believe in Judaism, I will not accept Christianity. Why should I take New Testament quotes to heart when I have completely torn the NT apart? Simple fact checking with the Old Testament is sufficient to disregard the whole NT as fallacies.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
You claim to be wise and yet that very wisdom will be your downfall on the very last day. The very thing that you are rejecting will become your stumbling block. Only a fool would say that there is no God. Yet it is not too late, you must repent or perish. You can either live or you can die. The choice is yours.
I don't claim to be wise, I'm not saying that there is no God, because I believe in him. Just not in your pagan idol-on-a-stick. And it is pathetic, nay, a disgrace, that you walk around saying that people will perish if they do not agree with you, seriously do you have no shame? You are pathetic, one dishonest apologetic for a pagan religious lie, the biggest scam in the history of mankind.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
I must say overall, I have really enjoyed this discussion. You made me go out and learn more about Jesus and look up some more Bible verses that I otherwise wouldn't have memorized. With everything that I have told you about the genealogy - I cannot wait to teach all of the kids about this very thing. Everything that you have heard this time and last time, I will tell as many people as I possibly can. I will form it into a sermon. In my experience, people skip over the genealogy so doing a sermon on this will be very easy.
You haven't enjoyed this discussion, you are so emotionally locked up in the scam of Christianity that you do not even consider my arguments. You don't even respond to my significant points, they you just ignore.
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
When somebody wants to investigate who Jesus is then I will take this whole thing with me, show the respective Bible verses and how they connect with the genealogy. They will be one step closer to accepting Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior. It is all thanks to you. You have helped me grow even closer to the LORD than the last time we spoke. That is one of the reasons why I keep coming back, since I know that I am right and yet I can always learn more about the LORD.
Yes please don't forget to tell the kids that the sacrificial system is gonna be restored when the temple is rebuilt
Don't forget to tell the kids about the pagan "Satan" who according to the New Testament, lurking around this earth looking for people to devour.
Don't forget to tell the kids that Israel would dwell safely when the branch of David would spring up.
Don't forget to tell the kids that if they don't believe in the pagan idol-on-a-stick called Jesus, they will roast forever in the fires of hell.
And don't forget to tell them that you had a long conversation with a patient man like me who tried to show you by a thousand arguments what absurd nonsense Christianity is, and who tried to help you not live your life like a fool.
Over and out.