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Oct 4 2025 07:10am
^ironfister

You argue that negotiating with Hamas is impossible, comparing it to negotiating with Stalin. I agree that dealing with bad-faith actors is treacherous. But let's apply your own logic to your "side" shall we. What do you call it when, on a Friday, the leader of the western world, Donald Trump, issues a "negotiate by Monday" ultimatum to Iran, and then, on saturday he drops bombs using B-2 bombers and destroys Iran's facilities? What do you call it when that Donald Trump looks the other way while his ally, Israel bombs Qatar, which is the strongest Western Ally outside of Nato? Israel literally bombed the very same negotiators that were used to free scores of hostages. You call that strength. I call it the very same exterminatory, bad-faith violence you rightly attribute to Stalin. Your strategy has become a mirror image of the monster you fear. You say the only way to deal with an opponent is to be strong. I agree. But true strength is measured and strategic. From my perspective, it is Putin, yes, Putin the dictator, who has shown restraint, while the West—seeing this restraint as weakness—has consistently escalated.


Very well said
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Oct 4 2025 07:24am


I am just going to put myself here for Page 5000.
Legendary.

B)
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Oct 4 2025 07:42am
I'll have to do some homework for the new thread, no big deal.
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Oct 4 2025 08:35am
I'll have to do some homework for the new thread, no big deal.


https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92659217&f=119
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Oct 4 2025 08:54am


ehh i want a fancy intro and informative 1st pages with videos and stuff.
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Oct 4 2025 01:52pm
5000 pages of back and forth, incredible.
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Oct 4 2025 02:05pm
5000 pages of back and forth, incredible.


The truly amazing part is how there are still conflicting views.
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Oct 4 2025 02:45pm
Any recap?
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Oct 4 2025 03:31pm
ill probably double post this. once here, once in the new thread.

2004 - NATO Expansion

The geopolitical landscape of Eastern Europe was fundamentally reshaped by NATO's largest-ever enlargement, which incorporated seven Eastern European countries, including the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. This move placed the alliance directly on Russia's borders. At the same time, NATO's Istanbul Summit invited Ukraine into an "Intensified Dialogue." Despite this significant westward shift of its strategic buffer zone, Russia's initial response was notably tame, a period of relative acquiescence that would soon end.

2008 - The Summit

The 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest proved to be a critical turning point. Overriding objections from key European powers Germany and France, the alliance issued a definitive declaration that Ukraine and Georgia "will become members of NATO." Russia immediately and forcefully condemned this as a "direct threat," framing it as a profound Western betrayal. This declaration established the central, irreconcilable point of geopolitical contention that would define the next 14 years, cementing Russia's view of NATO expansion as an existential challenge.

2014 - Euromaidan and the Unfolding Crisis

The year began with the Euromaidan protests, which culminated in the ousting of President Yanukovych. This event is characterized by realists as a U.S.-backed coup, a view supported not only by the leaked phone call of Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland discussing who to install into Ukraine's new leadership but also by the documented role of USAID. As an arm of U.S. foreign policy, USAID had for years prior provided funding and organizational training to Ukrainian civil society groups and pro-democracy activists, which were instrumental in the protest movement. In response, eastern Ukrainian regions and Crimea refused to recognize the new government's legitimacy, demanding Yanukovych's reinstatement and new elections. The West's immediate recognition of the new government in Kyiv became the immediate driver of conflict. This sparked an eight-year civil war in Donbas, marked by brutal warfare and the use of cluster munitions by both sides, resulting in an estimated 14,000 deaths prior to 2022. The chaos provided the conditions for Russia's annexation of Crimea and its direct military intervention in Donbas.

The trajectory of the conflict was accurately forecast by prominent voices. In a seminal 2015 lecture, University of Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer outlined The Causes and Consequences of the Ukraine Crisis, arguing that the West's policy of pulling Ukraine into its orbit was the primary cause of the conflict and a direct path to a larger war. This prediction was echoed from within Ukraine in 2019, when then-advisor to the Ukrainian peace negotiations, Alexey Arestovych, publicly predicted a full-scale Russian-Ukrainian war would occur within 3-5 years, citing Ukraine's deepening military alignment with NATO as the certain trigger.

In the years that followed, the conflict became entrenched. From 2014 to 2021, the U.S. and NATO systematically trained and equipped the Ukrainian military, while Ukraine amended its constitution in 2019 to formally seek NATO membership. Large-scale joint military exercises, such as the annual Rapid Trident drills, became a regular feature, further solidifying the military partnership. In the months leading up to the 2022 invasion, fighting along the line of contact in Donbas intensified significantly, with a sharp increase in cease-fire violations and artillery duels, creating a highly volatile pre-war atmosphere.

2022 - The Invasion

The diplomatic landscape shifted fundamentally with the departure of German Chancellor Angela Merkel in December 2021. Her policy of Wandel durch Handel ("change through trade"), which relied on economic engagement to moderate Russia's behavior, had been a cornerstone of European strategy. With Merkel gone, Europe's independent voice weakened, and the United States took the undisputed driving seat of the Western response.

This shift was decisive. From this perspective, the U.S. strategy constituted a deliberate trap. President Biden's public assurance that he would not deploy U.S. troops to defend Ukraine was interpreted by Moscow as a green light to invade. The U.S. calculation appears to have been to provoke a Russian invasion, anticipating that the subsequent unified Western response—massive sanctions aimed at crippling the Russian economy and a proxy war fought by Ukrainian forces—would achieve long-sought strategic goals: fatally weakening Russian power and effecting regime change in Moscow.

Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022. The initial assault on Kyiv failed, and during March, promising peace talks were underway in Istanbul. Those talks ultimately collapsed shortly after UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson visited Kyiv, reportedly advising Ukraine against negotiations. The U.S. and its allies then pursued their dual strategy of massive military aid and severe sanctions. This strategy failed in its maximalist aim; Russia adapted its economy and deepened non-Western ties, and the regime did not fall. Furthermore, the conflict triggered a historic expansion of NATO with the accessions of Finland and Sweden. Western military aid to Ukraine systematically escalated to include tanks, F-16s, and finally, long-range ATACMS missiles authorized for use inside Russian territory, cementing the conflict as a sustained geopolitical standoff. To this day, the west continues to seek regime change in Russia, by way of seeking to topple the Russian Economy.

This post was edited by ferdia on Oct 4 2025 03:31pm
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Oct 4 2025 03:31pm
Ups.

This post was edited by ferdia on Oct 4 2025 03:32pm
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