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#49691
Aug 21 2025 02:16am
Quote (Goomshill @ 21 Aug 2025 10:10)
Russia 'actually' cares about Nazis to the extent that Nazis on their doorstep with an advance NATO base and armed with NATO weapons pose an existential threat to Russia.


Before 2014, they hardly had weapons, no NATO base and no talks about NATO membership. In the following years, they were armed because russia decided to send their inkognito soldiers, but nowhere near capable of launching an attack on Russia, the equipment was more suitable for defending. There was no 'existential threat.'"

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Aug 21 2025 02:27am
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#49692
Aug 21 2025 03:37am
Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Aug 21 2025 10:16am)
Before 2014, they hardly had weapons, no NATO base and no talks about NATO membership. In the following years, they were armed because russia decided to send their inkognito soldiers, but nowhere near capable of launching an attack on Russia, the equipment was more suitable for defending. There was no 'existential threat.'"


Wrong as per usual ;)


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Quote
Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008


Quote
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.


This post was edited by Djunior on Aug 21 2025 03:37am
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#49693
Aug 21 2025 03:49am
Quote (Djunior @ 21 Aug 2025 11:37)
Wrong as per usual ;)


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm


Oh my, ukraine parliament 2010 voted to give up nato ambitions and declared to stay neutral. Therefor not on the table in 2014.

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Aug 21 2025 03:51am
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#49694
Aug 21 2025 04:14am
Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Aug 21 2025 03:16am)
Before 2014, they hardly had weapons, no NATO base and no talks about NATO membership. In the following years, they were armed because russia decided to send their inkognito soldiers, but nowhere near capable of launching an attack on Russia, the equipment was more suitable for defending. There was no 'existential threat.'"


Before december 1941 America was hardly involved in WW2, wouldn't send its troops and no talks of an allied invasion of europe. Before october 2023 there was no talk of Israel annexing Gaza.
The Ukrainians had weapons and became a NATO base and talked about joining NATO because of the events of 2014. The events that threatened Russia and their interests. The events that caused Russia to send their little green men and eventually invade. You're putting the cart in front of the horse
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#49695
Aug 21 2025 04:49am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 20 Aug 2025 15:35)
You're intentionally missing the point. The question isn't if there are nazis in Ukraine, the question is how powerful they are and if their influence on Ukraine's government is significant enough to justify Russia's actions, or to make Russia the morally superior side in this conflict.

Additionally, it is intellectually dishonest to ignore that swastikas and far-right symbols used by Ukrainians need to be viewed against the backdrop of Ukraine's specific history - a history in which they were subjugated and genocided by the Soviets, so that the nationalist half of their population viewed the invading nazi forces which fought against the Soviets as liberators and sided with them. In the Ukrainian context, these symbols can also signal an ultra-nationalist or anti-Russian attitude and don't necessarily have to mean the usual "gas the jews; let's exterminate all non-Aryans" drivel.


Thats not what’s happening in Ukraine at the moment if you are following the conflict.

1) Azov/Third Assault is getting more and more involved in political games at the highest level. https://www.intelligenceonline.com/government-intelligence/2025/08/18/the-saga-of-the-3rd-azov-brigade-from-the-trenches-of-donbas-to-the-corridors-of-power%2C110508178-eve?

2) they openly write about gassing the Jews and exterminating the orcs in their X/ telegram blogs (and here on JSP, by the way). I’ve posted several excerpts before. Telegram links are banned I understand.

3) Zaluzhny who openly took pictures with Nazi symbols and Ukranian far right is groomed to run for president.
https://x.com/sassovivente/status/1957804491991839053?s=46&t=

This post was edited by Malopox on Aug 21 2025 04:52am
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#49696
Aug 21 2025 05:02am
Quote (Goomshill @ 21 Aug 2025 12:14)
The events that threatened Russia and their interests.


Protests and free elections are a threat now. Spare me the coup story please, I’ve already read your stance on that.
What is a real threat to Russia is former USSR countries developing much better than Russia due to their Western orientation.

Quote (Goomshill @ 21 Aug 2025 12:14)
You're putting the cart in front of the horse


I have the same impression.
The weapons and training that stopped their so called three-day special operation were mainly delivered after the annexation of Crimea and other areas. Before that, it was mostly outdated USSR equipment. So yes, we can agree that NATO involvement spiked heavily in 2014 but that was a response to Russia’s actions. Nobody in Eastern Europe would care about NATO if it weren’t for Russia’s wars in Chechnya, Dagestan, Georgia, Moldova, and Tajikistan. Even Finland only joined because of the most recent invasion.
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#49697
Aug 21 2025 05:29am
Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Aug 21 2025 11:49am)
Oh my, ukraine parliament 2010 voted to give up nato ambitions and declared to stay neutral. Therefor not on the table in 2014.


Elected Ukrainian president Yanukovych was taken out in a violent coup orchestrated by the West and you know why ;)
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#49698
Aug 21 2025 05:34am
Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Aug 21 2025 06:02am)
Protests and free elections are a threat now. Spare me the coup story please, I’ve already read your stance on that.


You can't call water dry or fire cold by dismissing it as a 'story'. Its not a stance, its a fact. Even if you choose to reject it, your 'story' doesn't change how geopolitical actors will regard it.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup d'etat by pro-western forces, who then created a puppet government under US/EU hand picked leadership.
That's a fact. The Russians are fully aware of it, and all the west accomplishes is huffing their own farts by insisting its somehow democratic and liberating for a mob of the minority party to overthrow a government by force.
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#49699
Aug 21 2025 06:54am
Quote (Goomshill @ 21 Aug 2025 13:34)
You can't call water dry or fire cold by dismissing it as a 'story'. Its not a stance, its a fact. Even if you choose to reject it, your 'story' doesn't change how geopolitical actors will regard it.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup d'etat by pro-western forces, who then created a puppet government under US/EU hand picked leadership.
That's a fact. The Russians are fully aware of it, and all the west accomplishes is huffing their own farts by insisting its somehow democratic and liberating for a mob of the minority party to overthrow a government by force.


You're conveniently leaving out that the euromaidan protests started out peacefully, were brutalized by Yanukovch's goons first and only then started fighting back with force. You're also leaving out that Yanukovych fled the country and even the members of his own party voted in favor of the resolution which declared him to have abdicated.

And to preemptively address your probable counterargument: no, that parliamentary session in 2014 Ukraine cannot be compared to the passage of the Enabling Act in 1933 Germany. You did not have goons phyiscally present in the chamber to intimidate the MPs when they voted out Yanukovych, the pro-European side did not have full control of the security apparatus like the nazis did and you did not have a situation where half of the pro-Russian politicians were already in jail or concentration camps.
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#49700
Aug 21 2025 07:07am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 21 2025 02:54pm)
You're conveniently leaving out that the euromaidan protests started out peacefully, were brutalized by Yanukovch's goons first and only then started fighting back with force. You're also leaving out that Yanukovych fled the country and even the members of his own party voted in favor of the resolution which declared him to have abdicated.

And to preemptively address your probable counterargument: no, that parliamentary session in 2014 Ukraine cannot be compared to the passage of the Enabling Act in 1933 Germany. You did not have goons phyiscally present in the chamber to intimidate the MPs when they voted out Yanukovych, the pro-European side did not have full control of the security apparatus like the nazis did and you did not have a situation where half of the pro-Russian politicians were already in jail or concentration camps.


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