well you responded to my point about pro Putin propaganda with a message that I understood as a kind of justification to why Putin had to attack like he was defending himself/taking precautious measures because poor Putin needs to fear the evil Europeans once again.... and the "morally superior" part implied that Russia was under a similar threat right now which simply isnt true or worse even that the current defensive war of Ukraine is fought under similar morals as the crazy/criminal/inhumane attacks of Nazi Germany during second world war. These is lots of evidence that Russia fabricated propaganda of Russians that were mistreated/surpressed in Ukraine as a pretense to start that war.

I agree though, that to reduce the war in Ukraine simply to Putin being afraid of democracy is a bit too simplistic. There are lots of strategic/economic/resource-related motives as well.

I'm a realist and my reply was realistic. Clearly I didn't defend anyone. Your replies are not realistic

The reality is that every country in the world is trying to defend their interests that's how it works in this world whether you like it or not and "moral standards" (your words) don't mean anything in geo-politics. Where were the moral standards when the coalition sanctioned Iraq and a couple hundred thousand kids died.

Also you contradict yourself. You stated you're well aware that NATO promised not to expand East and now you say Russia is using fabricated propaganda of Russians that were mistreated in Ukraine to start the war. This war didn't start in 2022, this whole thing has been brewing for decades and the uprising in the East of Ukraine happened in 2014. Ukraine did indeed treat them badly, sending the Ukrainian military in to try crush the uprising.

you can't just say "no I didn't do that" when you can just look at the way you wrote your answer and its clearly leaning towards justifying Russias actions as "logical/realistic". Its like saying "its totally understandable that guy x murdered guy y, he hated the guy" - just because the outcome is realistic doesnt mean countries have to act on their lowerst impulses. There are other (diplomatic) means to achieve goals as well. Using military force should always be the last resort.

Yes the conflict was brewing for a while but clearly incited by Russia funding the rebels and sending covert troops into the region to fight there... they are doing similar things in other countries like Moldavia. And if the eastern parts of Ukraine were so badly surpressed and were longing for Russia to free them, why was the referendum in 2014 not done under more free and fair pretenses? Actual polls showed 2/3 of people were against independence from Ukraine. So of course Ukraine needed to act on this ... I would even at that time call it a sort of invation as it was orchestrated by Russia.

I don't see the contradiction you point out, as the propaganda was clearly fabricated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I said I don't fault countries for looking for proection against an increasingly dangerous Russia looking to take their freedom and independence away even if initially the promise was a different one. I think that promise back then was made under the assumption that Russia too would enter a more democratic way at the end of the cold war. But to just say "that was promised, so now Russia is justified to lash out" seems kinda out of proportion. The overall diplomatic landscape always changes.

I think your example of Iraq shows that "being on the right side of history" is kinda difficult sometimes. But that doesn't mean I will give up my personal views and morals to which I will hold my leaders accountable. I think the difference is that Putin isn't accountable to the murders his Troops are commiting in Ukraine while at least if our politicians take measures that end in horrific loss of life, there are mechanisms such as NGOs/political opposition/media that will bring this to the publics attention, resulting in actual consequences.

https://x.com/MenchOsint/status/1922729196209557705

Estonia and Finland are saber rattling in the Gulf of Finland, with the Estonian navy attempting today to seize a Russian shadow fleet tanker in international waters, only to be driven away when Russia flew Su-35s to escort it. The ports have this natural flashpoint because recognized airspace of the three countries fully overlaps the recognized international waters with the narrow channel for traffic;



Of course there are only 4 planes, 2 unarmed 2 training jets from the 1970s, in the entire estonian airforce. They can accuse Russia of violating their airspace when Russian jets fly into international waters to ward off estonians who are just engaging in blatant piracy, since NATO sanctions have no basis to apply to vessels in international waters with commerce between countries outside of their jurisdiction. But they can't do anything about it, and having a NATO member both try to hijack a Russian vessel in international waters and launch missiles at Russian jets escorting it, well that would be a real overt act of war

This post was edited by Goomshill on May 14 2025 03:05pm

If you're so concerned about the Ukrainians and the difficulty they face right now you'd admit that this this whole adventure was a pretty bad idea. It didn't have to be this way why couldn't Ukraine just be a good neighbor, why didn't they just pay their gas bills but had to steal gas from Russia? If it's true that they have such a wealth of rare earths and other minerals why didn't they develop that with the help of Russia and use that money to pay their debt?

The West dangled a juicy carrot and a lot of promises and Ukraine took the bait that's what happened. They all understood that this could result in a war. You're not going to tell me that those leaders didn't understand that, they wouldn't be fit for office. /

And don't even start about propaganda. The Russians were out of missiles and throwing poorly trained conscripts armed with shovels at the Ukrainians meat-wave style. Allegedly they were stripping washing machines for circuit boards to put in their missiles. Oh and they were getting completely wrecked by the sanctions too, remember that one? And why did Denmark and Sweden quietly drop the Nord Stream investigation and why is Germany awfully quiet about it? If the Russians blew up those pipelines wouldn't it be great to show the evidence to the world?

The bolded is a joke right? The ICC didn't hold any of those leaders accountable but they signed an arrest warrant for the Russian president because he pulled Ukrainian kids (allegedly orphans) out of a war zone. Remember those dead Iraqi kids who was held accountable?

Ukraine fucked around and found out

The real problem right now is the crazed anti Russia hysteria that has gripped establishment thought across the continent. It's killing hundreds of thousands of European men. Its destroying German industry. It's helping to impoverish white households.

We’ve been through all of this before. There is apparently a freaking monument to Crimean War in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Russophobia has led to irrational Western foreign policy before time and time again.The same is happening now. An irrational hatred of Russians. The continuation of an easily solvable war in Europe. Rather than buying their cheap energy.

Patriots need to take control of US and European foreign policy establishments. Not these nutcase vulture capitalists. Millions of white people can die. And they don't care. They’ll just replace them with immigrants from Africa and Bangladesh. Money is all that matters to them.

Patriots need to take power.

This post was edited by Malopox on May 15 2025 01:20pm

Theoretically, it could also mean that the Russian side is ramping up the intensity of its attacks in an attempt at gobbling up as much territory last minute as they can before a ceasefire/peace deal freezes the conflict.

A Ukrainian man charged over fires at properties and car linked to Sir Keir Starmer

A 21-year-old man has been charged with three counts of arson with intent to endanger life after fires at two properties and a car linked to Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer.

Roman Lavrynovych, 21, a Ukrainian national from Sydenham, southeast London, is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court on Friday, the Metropolitan Police said.

The force said officers from the Met's Counter Terrorism Command led the investigation because of the connections to the prime minister.

Source: Sky News

https://news.sky.com/story/man-charged-with-arson-over-fires-at-properties-and-car-linked-to-sir-keir-starmer-13367129

man you love to make Putin sound like the hero here. For all the cleverness, you may think you have, you sure are bad at looking behind the curtains. If Putin is so concerned to save Ukranian children / civilians, then why is he constantly bombing them instead of focussing on military targets? Also these children you mention were abducted to be indoctrinated in a pro-russian way.

The propaganda is why you are currently defending Russia, acting like its somewhat crazy to think Russia is dangerous and hostile to the very way of living we have. But again, do 5 min of actual research and it becomes apparent that they are not a free society and people. Again, I understand why geopolitically, it all led to war. I also understand that the West provoced Russia by moving into their sphere of influence. But if I have to take sides here, I prefer politics that expand freedom and democracy around the globe over the claims of a murderous dictator. And one that will try to attack Nato nations in Europe a few years down the road

With regards to your comment about the ICC, first of all thats not the only consequence. Second, the US doesn't recognize the ICC so DUH on there not being consequences from that body for US leaders. But I rather talked about the normal political process - pretty sure one major contributing factor for Obama winning in 2008 was the whole Iraq war debacle. Do you think Putin may be voted out of office because of his decision to wage war against Ukraine? Take all the time you need with that one.