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Mar 15 2025 05:37pm
A credible analyst wouldn't reflexively accept the propaganda talking points of either side at face value, but instead point to the fog of war and unknowables in the absence of evidence.
Video POVs from both sides are the best insight we can actually get to the situation on the ground, and its a small slice in any given video. There are videos of soldiers in a clearly disorganized night time retreat, there are videos of groups of POWs, lots and lots of videos of captured equipment and corpses on the ground.
What does that actually sum up to? We don't know. If someone without operation level intelligence claims to know the answer, they're probably full of shit. And like I said, its unlikely we'll even know the answer 10 years from now

If we're going with top level analysis from someone with access to the full top secret intelligence briefings available to the US military, well Donald Trump says it looks pretty bad


Military analysts have their own credible sources - he was endorsing an opinion by RT'ing, which is not accepting it at face value.

More analysts, including the Michael Kofman and the defence editor of the Economist go along with this view btw: https://x.com/shashj/status/1900616573435490366

Are they just accepting propaganda points too? Or is it conceivable they have sources? Hmm....

There is an element of truth to what you're saying, of course -- we don't know an awful lot about what has transpired over the last few days.

But going from that, to holding more stock in isolated telegram clips from pro-Russian propaganda channels than experts who have dedicated their professional lives to studying the Russian military, is quite a leap.

This post was edited by dro94 on Mar 15 2025 05:38pm
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Mar 15 2025 06:02pm
Military analysts have their own credible sources - he was endorsing an opinion by RT'ing, which is not accepting it at face value.

More analysts, including the Michael Kofman and the defence editor of the Economist go along with this view btw: https://x.com/shashj/status/1900616573435490366

Are they just accepting propaganda points too? Or is it conceivable they have sources? Hmm....

There is an element of truth to what you're saying, of course -- we don't know an awful lot about what has transpired over the last few days.

But going from that, to holding more stock in isolated telegram clips from pro-Russian propaganda channels than experts who have dedicated their professional lives to studying the Russian military, is quite a leap.


Video evidence overrules 'experts'. Ukraine got routed in Kursk over the last few weeks. This wasn't a planned and organized withdrawal to more advantaged ground, they were overwhelmed, while Russia had fire control of a lot of the routes so it increasingly became impossible to reenforce the soldiers there. There's videos of roads where you see like a half dozen vehicle blown up within like a 30 yard road range.


I've followed the Economist on the war for years and can safely say it's one of the most pro-neocon outlets there is. Kofman is okay but still biased. I'll take video bloggers on Twitter coupled with mapper accounts over the Economist any day lmao.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Mar 15 2025 06:04pm
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Mar 15 2025 06:29pm
The economist has a pretty obvious bias yeah
but just look at it from the known knowns / known unknowns perspective

We know this was a fairly rapid fall of the city, we know Russia had some unexpected flanking maneuvers like the pipeline commandos. We know Sudzha is now back in Russian hands, we know there has been a huge amount of death in the city. We know Ukraine is absolutely full of shit when they claim their operations are unaffected / have full freedom to maneuver. We know they've bungled previous withdrawals, with huge amounts of people killed/captured in disorganized routs.
We don't know how organized and effective this retreat was. We don't know how many POWs were taken, how many were executed in war crimes. We don't know how many were killed on the retreat routes, we don't know how heavy the losses during the occupation and siege were on either side.

Our small slices of evidence show videos of bodies and destroyed buildings everywhere, many ukrainian military outfit corpses. We have numerous videos of POWs captured, some of POWs executed. We've got some videos of a chaotic retreat in the middle of the night. And a huge amount of video of abandoned ukrainian (ie american made) equipment, most of it destroyed, some of it captured in working order. Tanks, armor, etc.

We can't say for sure what all this adds up to. We know about horrible losses in some previous retreats like Avdiivka. We have no way to know what this one looks like
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Mar 15 2025 11:53pm
A blackwater speech by eric prince gave some insights into what military tech changes are occurring and how Russia has adapted.
One thing he said stuck out, how some stocks of prebuilt systems like Copperheads and Javelins have basically become worthless due to EW. We've invested heavily in EW countermeasures for systems like new drones, but we've got stockpiles of tens of thousands of missiles that can't hit the broad side of a russian barn anymore due to jamming. This is think is also a very abstract lens issue with the american military going into the mid 21st century. Everyone has predicted how major carrier strike groups would be bigger targets than force projection, how drones would be the future. But we're seeing just how useless outdated tech can be, and all the huge production of the past 20 years might amount to nothing at all. At least we kept pawning it off on allies and proxy warriors because this shit clearly wouldn't help in a major armed conflict.

maybe we can produce updated, laser guided or AI guided ATGMs in the future, but its not like you can just slap a converter kit on a javelin and turn it into a smart bomb
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Mar 16 2025 12:11am
The economist has a pretty obvious bias yeah
but just look at it from the known knowns / known unknowns perspective

We know this was a fairly rapid fall of the city, we know Russia had some unexpected flanking maneuvers like the pipeline commandos. We know Sudzha is now back in Russian hands, we know there has been a huge amount of death in the city. We know Ukraine is absolutely full of shit when they claim their operations are unaffected / have full freedom to maneuver. We know they've bungled previous withdrawals, with huge amounts of people killed/captured in disorganized routs.
We don't know how organized and effective this retreat was. We don't know how many POWs were taken, how many were executed in war crimes. We don't know how many were killed on the retreat routes, we don't know how heavy the losses during the occupation and siege were on either side.

Our small slices of evidence show videos of bodies and destroyed buildings everywhere, many ukrainian military outfit corpses. We have numerous videos of POWs captured, some of POWs executed. We've got some videos of a chaotic retreat in the middle of the night. And a huge amount of video of abandoned ukrainian (ie american made) equipment, most of it destroyed, some of it captured in working order. Tanks, armor, etc.

We can't say for sure what all this adds up to. We know about horrible losses in some previous retreats like Avdiivka. We have no way to know what this one looks like


A blackwater speech by eric prince gave some insights into what military tech changes are occurring and how Russia has adapted.
One thing he said stuck out, how some stocks of prebuilt systems like Copperheads and Javelins have basically become worthless due to EW. We've invested heavily in EW countermeasures for systems like new drones, but we've got stockpiles of tens of thousands of missiles that can't hit the broad side of a russian barn anymore due to jamming. This is think is also a very abstract lens issue with the american military going into the mid 21st century. Everyone has predicted how major carrier strike groups would be bigger targets than force projection, how drones would be the future. But we're seeing just how useless outdated tech can be, and all the huge production of the past 20 years might amount to nothing at all. At least we kept pawning it off on allies and proxy warriors because this shit clearly wouldn't help in a major armed conflict.

maybe we can produce updated, laser guided or AI guided ATGMs in the future, but its not like you can just slap a converter kit on a javelin and turn it into a smart bomb


Yeah this is just what conflicts will be from now on 24 hour surveillance of the contact line, brutal tench warfare with artillery and constant fpv drone attacks.
If they could put a competent AI on smaller missile, they would probably put them on anti air missiles first to completely defeat 'Stealth' aircraft, since they would no longer need a lock, just get the missile to where it can identify the aircraft itself.
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Mar 16 2025 01:49am
Fact is, the vast majority of Ukrainians just don't want to be with you. At some point, you'll have to accept their self-determination - not for moral reasons but practical ones. Russia does not possess the population, economic power and demographics to control a country as large as Ukraine.


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

Quote
Relations between NATO and Ukraine date back to the early 1990s and have since developed into one of the most substantial of NATO’s partnerships.



Clearly this is not about Ukrainian self determination, it's the desire to expand NATO (military alliance to oppose the USSR) all the way to Russia's border.

Try pulling a stunt like this on the US and you'll have a war within 24 hours
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Mar 16 2025 02:52am
The sources who deny encirclement are technically right. One side is still open. What it amounts to though is completely different. All roads from Kursk to Ukraine are under Russia's artillery fire and drone observation/attacks. Supply and escape routes are effectively cut. You have around 7k troops who couldn't retreat in time. Their options are to somehow walk to Ukraine border under freezing conditions with no supplies. As soon as they are in the open drones and artillery shelling pick them apart. From the Russian side, their troops are sweeping every corner in the direction of the Ukrainian border.

So yeah, tabloids can talk shit all day, doesn't mean it's true.
Another side node, there are lots foreign mercenaries, Brits and Americans among them who helped with the gear/intel US/GB was providing on the ground.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Mar 16 2025 02:55am
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Mar 16 2025 03:10am
The sources who deny encirclement are technically right. One side is still open. What it amounts to though is completely different. All roads from Kursk to Ukraine are under Russia's artillery fire and drone observation/attacks. Supply and escape routes are effectively cut. You have around 7k troops who couldn't retreat in time. Their options are to somehow walk to Ukraine border under freezing conditions with no supplies. As soon as they are in the open drones and artillery shelling pick them apart. From the Russian side, their troops are sweeping every corner in the direction of the Ukrainian border.

So yeah, tabloids can talk shit all day, doesn't mean it's true.
Another side node, there are lots foreign mercenaries, Brits and Americans among them who helped with the gear/intel US/GB was providing on the ground.


That's really just what happened in Avdiivka. Its not that Russian troops actually circle around a full arc, its that they're sandwiched into a single lane of retreat that gets pulverized by airstrikes and drones. In the previous routs, it was notable that Ukrainian soldiers were left with no armor despite the huge amount deployed- not even motorcycles like Russians have to attempt their breakout, and most were just walking through completely exposed fields and getting picked apart, hence the high rate of surrenders.
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Mar 16 2025 03:12am

That's really just what happened in Avdiivka. Its not that Russian troops actually circle around a full arc, its that they're sandwiched into a single lane of retreat that gets pulverized by airstrikes and drones. In the previous routs, it was notable that Ukrainian soldiers were left with no armor despite the huge amount deployed- not even motorcycles like Russians have to attempt their breakout, and most were just walking through completely exposed fields and getting picked apart, hence the high rate of surrenders.


Yep, a single rail. You force the opponent to abandon their positions instead of leaving your own to attack them. The strategy yields loopsided numbers in casualties for the attacker vs. the defender. The defender has only one choice, to leave as soon as possible to minimize losses.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Mar 16 2025 03:31am
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Mar 16 2025 06:16am
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