Ukraine is getting completely wrecked thanks to Western foreign policy. They would've been fine without EU / NATO, now they're paying the price.

People like you are the problem here because you support these policies and just like Western leaders you believe you're better than others.

It is a waste of time to talk to these unhinged unreasonable foul mouthed and abusive individuals. better to simply ignore them. in the meantime :

There was most definitely a small majority of Ukrainians who preferred an orientation toward the West in the 2000s and early 2010s. But it was presumably something like 51% pro-West, 47% pro-Russia or something like that, with significant geographical polarization. Before the Maidan, the pro-Russian side had the upper hand in terms actual political power, then things flipped around after Yanukovych fled Kyiv.

I've stressed this before, but I think it's important to repeat this again: this conflict didn't start in late 2013; by that point, there had already been an ongoing tug-of-war between the West and Russia over Ukraine for well over a decade. In the long run, this kind of polarization wasn't tenable imho and Ukraine would have broken apart sooner or later anyway. Pro-Western and pro-Russian parts of Ukraine should have separated amicably, like Czechoslovakia separated into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

The big hurdle were always the regions of Ukraine with "mixed allegiances". In places like Kyiv or Lwiw, you have overwhelming majorities for a pro-Western course, just like you have overwhelming pro-Russian majorities in places like Luhansk or Crimea. The issue were always places like Kharkiv or Odessa where you had a 55-35 split or something along those lines.




I think that's a common misconception. What all people around the globe want is the Western standard of living, but plenty of them are perfectly fine with a lack of democracy or freedom as long as they have prosperity, safety and stability. Think of Singapore, China, Dubai or Saudi Arabia.

The west wasnt trying to bring Ukraine closer, it was a country with corruption problem, low wages, competition for EU farmers, and Russia wasnt a problem back then. Like there was no gain back then. EU has already accepted some new countries like Poland or Romania, so didnt want more workforce, "stealing jobs"
Things changed when war started, we need Ukraine army on NATO side.


About freedom this is interesting, are you telling me that we can convert our democracies to monarchies?
But what if our king starts doing wrong things, how do we replace him when we dont have elections and fhe king has all the power?

Ukrainian EU and NATO membership was definitely something that was already thought and talked about during the 2000s. The consensus back then was that the time wasn't right yet, but it would be a lie to claim that the Western decision makers's vision for the longer-term future didn't inlcude a Ukraine in the Western fold.


You don't need to lecture me on the drawbacks of autocracies. I'd say most people in the West realize and cherish the upside of liberal democracy.
My point is that the #1 allure for many poor folks in third world countries isn't our freedom, it's our wealth.

Yes, they want the fruit without planting the tree.

Well Ukrainians, better start planting.

A 1970s Moskvich with electronic warfare system, anti-drone net and no doors so you can jump off before drone strikes. This kind of makeshift wonders have largely replaced the less useful larger armoured vehicles, according to milbloggers. This war was scripted by Mad Max producers.

kek

One of the key reasons why western experts are so wrong on Russian war capabilities. They will look at western assets on paper that are full of bloat-ware and expensive and think that means more zeros spent= sure victory. Then the Russians counter with a 500 dollar shit box. Our dollars and their dollars spent are not the same. We probably need to spend 5:1 to get to parity.

Anecdotal story (not true):

During the Space Race in the 1960s, NASA allegedly spent millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in the zero-gravity environment of space, while the Soviet Union simply used a pencil.

its called a magic marker