Getting tired of harping on this stuff but I still see people asking these same questions almost every day in the S&G concerning bowazon bow debate.
So here it is, I'll make it real elaborate as to not have to do this again.
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Let's look at a chart concerning: Normal GMB Faiths, FOI GMBs, Normal Diamond/Shadow Faiths and even FOI Diamond/Shadows
Consider these are vitazon setups
And remember that 90%IAS is max throw frames on mat/hyperion/winged javas
This is important because javside play is what makes or breaks the difference between a good pvp zon and a bad one
Classic Normal Faith GMB setup = Highest bowside damage- Normal Faith GMB "requires 92%IAS with 15 fanat to reach 7fpa"
- 45%/120
- Fort
- Nos 10%
- 20% IAS Knockback gloves
- War Traveler
- Cat's or Highlord's 20%
- Raven
- Dual Leech
This build maintains 95% IAS which reaches the final throw frame breakpoint for Eth Titan's or any mat/hyperion/winged that you use on javside.
Due to the latent 95% IAS, one could purchase a set of high damage rare eth cruel/fool javas that DO NOT have +IAS and still maintain maximum throw frames. This saves a lot of fg.
This build lacks in vita/res/DR% but it does have slightly higher bowside and javside damage compared to the follow builds, due to use of the normal gmb faith and 45/120 for javside throw.
This is the better build to use if you want to budget but still have a pvp zon to play with.
FOI GMB setup = About a 10% drop in damage from Normal Faith GMB but allows to swap 45/120 for a Rare Diadem or Nos for a Verdungo, but you can't do both- FOI GMB 20% "but still requires 92% IAS with 15 fanat to reach 7fpa"
- 45%/120 or a Rare 2os Zon Diadem with +2 skills/str/dex/res/frw and 2x 40/15IAS "lose a tad bit of ED% but gain a lot of passive character sustain"
- Fort
- Nos 10% or Verdungo "makes for 15% DR bowside and 50% DR javside when you are obviously using stormshield. Also adds UBER vitality in conjunction with BO and life rep"
- 20% IAS Knockback gloves
- War Traveler
- Cat's or Highlord's 20%
- Raven
- Dual Leech
Looks good on paper right? But what are the facts? Well, Say you forfeited the 45/120 for a Rare Diadem that has 2x 40/15% in it. So the Rare Diadem has 30%IAS value.
The build will have 100%IAS bowside but only 80%IAS on javside. You would need a rare set of javas with at least 10%IAS to maintain max throw and enough damage on them to justify losing the stats from up'd eth titan's.
Let's say you ditch Nos for Verdungo instead of the 45/120 for Rare Diadem. Now the build will have 105%IAS bowside but still only 85% javside, placing you in the same situation as above.
Let's say you tried to swap 45/120 for Rare Diadem and Nos for Verdungo. Now the build only has 90%IAS bowside and only 70%IAS javside. Not enough for max fpa bow or javside.
So the FOI GMB will allow you to swap one piece for more sustain. Either 45/120 for Rare Diadem or Nos for Verdungo, but not both.
Very important to point out that this setup is ridiculously expensive. First you are buying a FOI and then you must buy Rare Eth Cruel/Fool 10%IAS Rep Quantity to even make it a usable setup in pvp.
You could always get by with up'd eth titan's that are missing a frame but I wouldn't advise this. Javside efficiency is ultimately much more important than the bowside in 8/10 match ups.
If the FOI GMB would have had +25%IAS instead of +20%, it could have swapped for both 45/120 to Rare Diadem and Nos for Dungo and thus it would have easily taken over the role of Diamonds/Shadows.
But it does not... and it's 5% gain in damage over Diamond/Shadow isn't worth what you lose for using FOI GMB
Normal Diamond/Shadow Faith setups = About a 15% drop in bow damage from Normal Faith GMB but gains much more sustain than the above two setups and only hits about 5% damage less than a FOI GMB.- Normal Diamond or Shadow Faith "requires 65%IAS with 15fanat for 7frame"
- 2os, +2 skill amazon, @res, +str/dex, 30frw, socketed with 2x 40/15ias Rare Diadem - 30%IAS
- Fort
- Verdungo
- 20%IAS Knockback Gloves
- War Traveler
- Cat's or Highlord's 20%IAS
- Raven
- Dual Leech
Loses 15% bowside damage from Normal Faith GMB setup but gains large margins of sustain not just javside but also bowside. DR%,Vita,Life Rep, Res, +skills all gained.
Only loses about 5% damage from FOI GMB but allows for both swaps of 45/120 into Rare Diadem and Nos into Verdungo. The sustain gained is just statistically superior for optimization than the endeavor for +5% damage bowside only.
Furthermore, the low amount of IAS required allows for this build to be extremely versatile for gear swapping in GM or even BM matches, on both bowside and javside. This is something the above two builds are less flexible with.
The one downfall here is similar to the FOI GMB issue with having enough IAS on javside. Even though this spec won't require an overly expensive bow, it will still require expensive Rare Eth Cruel/Fool 20% rep quantity mats/hyprions/winged javas.
You can get away with losing 1 frame of throw on this spec because it is so tanky but I don't advise it. The entire point of using Diamond/Shadow is so that the javside is tweaked to be as strong as possible.
Although a strong Diamond/Shadow - Rare Eth Godly Jav setup is a very rewarding ZvA, I do not advise building this setup unless you are willing to go the long haul for the expensive godly javas. Not having them defeats the purpose of the Diamond/Shadow Bowa. But if you insist on dumping UBER amounts of fg into your zon and want to buy a FOI "which truth be told is a handicapped Diamond/Shadow setup", just do it right and use a real Diamond/Shadow setup. Focus your fg on getting those expensive godly javas and benefit the extra and much needed sustain for only a 5% loss in damage.
Diamond/Shadow FOI? = Not sure why these are being made but we'll theorycraft a viable setup for the sake of discussion- Diamond/Shadow FOI "still requires 65%IAS for 7frame, gonna be about a 10% drop in damage from a normal Diamond/Shadow Faith"
- You'll still want 30% run on your helm, which still leaves only 2 viable options: 3os/30frw Diadem or 2os Rare 30%frw Diadem. FOI D/S is opening no new options here
- Still need Fortitude, no new options opened here
- Verdungo obvious best option, no new options opened here
- Here you could use Dracul's for OW or Cleg's for slow %. Either way, you're going to be called out for BMing!
- War Traveler still best option, nothing new
- What amulet to use on a zon other than Cat's or Highlord's? Remember... javside IAS matters...
- Raven only option, nothing new
- Gotta have a dual leech, nothing new
Sounds cute until you realize the javside matters more than the bowside and this setup being utilized would kill all your IAS on javside, rendering the ZvA spec 100% useless.
I guess it's possible that this would be useful for telebowa novelty but we won't discuss that in this thread because we are discussing bowazons.
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Further into the topic of how to build a ZvA. What is my opinion on the best bow to use and why? Why are Rare Eth Cruel/Fool Rep Javas so important?->When you run GMB, you only have 35% DR on javside and it isn't enough DR% against real competition.
People like to front GMB guides in this forum but GMB guides were originally written for EU and the use of bugged belts, which are a Nosferatu and Verdungo combined. Thus EU GMB zons had 50% DR javside AND 10% slow.
East Amazons running GMB have 0% DR on bowside and only 35% DR javside due to forced use of nosferatu, it just isn't enough.
I recently answered this question in a PM.
Indirectly but it was answered.
This is probably one of the better responses I've ever given on the topic of GMB vs. Diamond/Shadow vs. FOIs and why Rare Ethereal Javs are so important.
There are certain builds that if played by very strong players, it is actually impossible to beat them without high damage rare eth cruel javelins and 50% DR javside, due to how the game's physics work when engaging melee range.
These builds are -> BvA, Ghost, Charger/Smiter
Those melee builds when played by powerful duelists will simply statistically pressure you into a situation where it becomes a test of defense and life value vs. damage dealt.
They engage you constantly with teleports and stay on top of you and turn it into a contest of who can deal damage the fastest and who can WSG out of stuns and block/dodge the most.
Those builds will not allow you to use a bow at all if they are played be strong players and it all amounts down to how much damage can you deal with javelins and how hard can you tank on your amazon.
This is why I wrote my guide based around javelin side, after many years of d2 dueling in all forms of environments and tiers.
People focus waaaaaay too much on the bowside when the reality is that:
Bowing down a teleporting ranged opponent is easy to do, regardless of who is playing and what class they are on. Anyone stupid enough to not pressure an amazon melee range is going to die, regardless of the bow you use.
The hard matches are the ones that play on your weaknesses, statistically within the game's engine. Those are the matches when someone is on top of you 100% of the time in the match.
These are the matches that define your ability to win a duel, progress in a ladder and define a character's reputation within the community and these matches are all played almost 100% javelinside.
Again, anyone can bow down a sorc teleporting around or a hammerdin with no smite/charge, regardless of if they use GMB, FOI or Diamond/Shadow, those matches are easy.
What truly matters in your build structure, is your ability to win against classes that are supposed to counter your class in a duel. Every single one of these matches is played javelinside.
- vs. BvA = lightning fury, sometimes jab if you can catch him in a bad ww frame for stun
- vs. Ghost = lightning fury, sometimes jab if caught in bad ww frame for stun
- vs. Charging/Smiting = light fury for damage and light bolt for ensured knockback if he gets too close, never jab vs smite
- vs. Heavy Eshield and/or with max block = light bolt and swordback hold to deliver OW past block rate and under EShield
Those matches are almost 100% javelinside and are generally seen as the "impossible matches" by most players on a bowazon
These next matches are a mixture of about 50% javside and 50% bowside play:
- vs. Wind Druid = multi shot to wear down summons on approach, light fury for high damage and stun at close range while being able to BLOCK TORNADOS, guided arrow when it retreats
- vs. Necromancer = multi shot and ga on approach but when he gets close you need to block javside or you'll be hit clay golem eventually and that = usually lose immediately. High damage fury makes them wary of getting too close.
- vs. Trapper = multi shot and ga on approach but mass WSG to escape stuns and also due to mindblast being physical damage, it's advantageous to try and stay shieldside for 50% DR and peg with fury, jab also stun locks if they are too close.
- vs. other bowazons and amazons in general = lots of swapping between bow and javelin. It's a mind game of when to pressure melee and when to get out and range.
These next matches are the easy matches where you already hard counter the person you're dueling and actually get to use the bow freely:
- vs. hammerdin who has no charge or smite or even ones with charge and smite but no grief = Run and bow and easily not get hit, easy win
- vs. any sorc with no Eshield = bad sorc, dies fast to GA alone, doesn't even matter what bow you use. You could use being a riphook for all it matters.
- vs. any other awry build that someone is trying to run that isn't mainstream, walk circles around it, bow freely, win.
But when put into perspective like this in terms of difficulty and frequency of use between bowside and javside, you can see why maintaining 50% DR on javside and high damage throwing is important if you want to win.
The bowside, which only allows you to freecast bad players that you're going to kill anyway, regardless of bow, is only ever even used in the difficult matches for attrition damage in small intervals of time.
Your bully damage and kill damage all comes form lightning fury and your javside is used much much more often in matches than bowside. Especially the matches the matter.
There are only two matches that running 45/120, GMB and Nosferatu are viability better than the rare diadem, verdungo, tankside javside setup and that is:
- vs. trapper = the 10% slow on nosferatu will slow down the assassin's trap lay speed, which slows down mindblast/sentry and allows you to land damage more easily, stun them and escape much more easily.
- vs. necromancer = the damage reduction doesn't matter here at all so it's a negligent argument. The nosferatu slow actually slows the golem's strikes so it's harder to land slow on your zon.
Those are the only two instances where GMB with only 35% DR on stormshield javside is actually better than a tanky 50% DR javside and it isn't even because of the bow, it's because of nosferatu.But yeah, that's the rant. I'll save this now so I don't ever have to do it again.
Point being, when looking at this layout, you can see why the rare eth cruel javelins will define your ability to win duels. They are actually used much more often than the bow is.
It isn't about the bow at all, it's about your javside power/defense.
Diamond/Shadow bows are optimal for this.
GMB for pvm
Never FOI, If it would have had +5% more IAS, it would have taken over the use of Diamond/Shadow but it does not and thus it is useless.
Remember that the use of Diamond/Shadow over GMB is a 15% increase in damage reduction, + lots of vita with BO and life rep.
But the use of GMB over Diamond/Shadow is a damage increase of about 15% but it gains no life value, no life rep and it is often not able to be used at all in a duel.
The DR % and the life value/rep always works for you.
The GMB is a better bow that Diamond/Shadow
But Diamond/Shadow makes a stronger ZvA setup with how mechanics actually work in pvpTruth be told, I'd almost like to update this after so many years but it's still a good guide and certainly won't steer anyone wrong.
Diamond/Shadow ZvA guide ->
http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=59891830&f=87Use Jesper's GMB guide as an alternate GMB setup ->
http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=49099908&f=87This post was edited by TSBoyer on Jun 25 2017 05:23pm