I mean Rian tried to pull away and fanbabies threw a fucking shitfit tantrum. I hope you know that the way people reacted to TLJ trying to step away from the generic mold means Disney will literally never again take a risk with Star Wars. Basically this means it is done. We won't get anything old republic or anything. I hope I'm wrong, but at this point I'm pretty sure Disney will remake the original trilogy before they try something new. The entire fan community being able to easily congregate via the Internet and cry as loudly as they are able to is doing nothing but harm to the film industry. Hollywood blockbuster production companies literally don't take risks anymore because it's better to play it safe and appease the idiots rather than to make something actually good if it might be any amount of divisive.

I mean I can't even fault Disney either, make something different (TLJ) and fanbabies cry because it isn't exactly what they want. Make the exact thing they said they wanted (RoS) and it's garbage, because fucking obviously, fanfic is literally never good, especially fanfic created by the vocal crying idiot fanbase.

This post was edited by Blah58 on Dec 23 2019 03:38pm

if this trilogy took place in the old republic i dont think anyone would cry as much, they'd just say "people must have forgot about lightspeed attacks" and "the force was clearly stronger back then". trying to attach it to the main franchise was a choice they made so they could scavenge characters like Han and Leia so they could get fans hyped.

i agree but im not nearly as glum about it as you. look at something like Stranger Things. it just plays with 80s horror and adventure movie plots to create a new show. and i think its great. you can use old plots with new characters and make it fresh. star wars tried to use old plots with old characters and new characters that were clones of old characters. and it didnt work for a lot of people for a lot of different reasons.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 23 2019 03:41pm

I mean they are trying to create a future for the star wars universe, I'm not sure they will ever go back to the old republic. I'd definitely love it if they did. A trilogy about the first time the Sith split off from the Jedi, or any number of the Sith wars could all be really cool. They should hire the guy who did the kotor games to write a trilogy. Would be awesome, he REALLY knows his stuff.

This post was edited by Blah58 on Dec 23 2019 06:01pm

If they wanted to make something different it should have started with episode 7 not being a soft reboot. You like the "bold" choices in TLJ. A lot of people like me saw Luke's character get assassinated. We saw hyperspace become a weapon out of nowhere. We saw little character development. We saw laughably stupid villains.

Guess what you do when you see those things? You critique them. Disney fucked up when they didn't lay out a coherent story line in the beginning. KK/JJ/RJ/Iger are all to blame for this trash. They didn't have to listen to the fans that didn't like it and make this dumpster fire.

I think I said previously that this trilogy was never going to work perfectly because of the planning.

I will however argue against your idea that Lukes character was assassinated, I think that is literally the furthest from the truth you could get.

Considering the preqs made Palpatine and Vader some of the most laughably stupid villans in all of movie history, it's funny you would say that about the new trilogy. Kylo had a lot of potential coming out of TLJ, but JJ is a pussy.

TLJ definitely had more character development than both tfa and ros combined. You may not have liked the direction the characters were moved in, but that doesn't mean the arcs weren't there.

Please explain to me how Vader and Palpatine came off as stupid villains. Palpatine destroyed the entire Jedi order, took full control of the senate and became Emperor of the galaxy. He manipulated an entire galaxy into war in order to do this.

Explain to me this character development in TLJ. Poe regresses from enacting plans that have the best chance at success in his view to calling off the only feasible plan by the end of the movie. Finn's entire arc is in service to Rey - no change there. Kylo continues to be an angry child. Rey continues to be an upbeat mary sue taking no damage from realizing Luke is broken, finding out her parents are nobodies and failing to save Kylo. Her next scene after all this failure is her laughing and smiling yelling "I like this" as she guns down tie fighters. Then she gets a hero moment at the end saving everyone discarding the theme of failure and to top it off the 20 or so surviving resistance are all smiles and hugs and happiness after being completely shit on the entire movie by an incompetent First Order.

I find Luke to be more subjective in this matter. I see him get shit on by RJ. I can see how people liked it and saw his little redemption arc as satisfying though.

Going to have to put this on hold until I get home from work, but I do have some ideas about all of this. Will be interesting if you agree with any of it.

Kylo is one of the best characters in the entire franchise. I would go as far as saying he's the best villain of the franchise. He definitely isn't just an angry kid. He actually has depth unlike every other villain.

He grew up with Luke being his mentor. He wanted to be a Jedi like he was. He then woke up to what looked like an assassination attempt by the person he looked up to most. That was the breaking point to push him over to Snoke. He was a scared boy. He appeared angry all the time because he was constantly bottling up emotions and was torn between light and dark. He had family that he still clearly loved, something Vader didn't have when he turned. Vader in the original trilogy was just a random villain with very little backstory and literally zero internal conflict minus the final 10 minutes of the trilogy. At least with Kylo we got to see the struggle he was going through in every movie. His redemption wasn't as forced.

Vader only sent to the dark side to save his wife, didn't work, doesn't make sense for him to stay. The prequels are filled with so much bad writing, the dialogue is bad and cheesy and makes Vader and Palpatine look extremely silly. Prequel Palpatine is the most meme'd character for a reason.

Poe doesn't regress, try thinking from his pov instead of the audience pov. He doesn't know what the plan is, all he knows is that they are going to move just fast enough to stay out of weapon range... And that's it, it isn't a feasible plan because as stated in the film they will eventually run out of fuel and be slaughtered. He thinks they are waiting for Leia to revive so she can do something about it and he thinks that it will be too late by then. By the end of the movie he realizes his mistake and is taught a valuable lesson, which puts him in the right space to be picked as Leia's replacement in RoS.

Finn's arc is the continuation of his arc from tFA, learning to be his own person with his own motivations. Most of this is shown through the relationship he develops with Rose, but then fans crying about "waaa rose bad waaa" so JJ threw that out of the window.

I'm really confused as to why Reys parents not being important in a galactic scale is supposed to upset her? Not sure why you bring that up tbh. Rey helping them escape at the end is by no means a hero moment and doesn't discard the themes of the movie... Like did you expect the entire resistance to be killed there? Han saved Luke at the end of epi5, does that discard the importance of that movie?

Every single star wars movie has the typical flying and characters being excited by it scenes, not sure why you're choosing specifically to pick on Rey for it. I don't remember this scene in the movie but it's been a while since I've seen it so.

And Lukes arc in the movie was started by JJ in tFA, Rian didn't "assassinate" his character out of no where. It is also a pretty reasonable way to take his character. I never understood all of the legends lore which made him out to be done massive force of good unflappable hero of the force, because he just isn't that. The entire original series is about him barely rising above his internal struggle and not going to the dark side, unlike his father who barely lost his internal struggle and fell to it. He was shown many times in the original trilogy to make bad emotional decisions and he barely rose above at the end. Just like he made a bad emotional decisions about kylo, which he managed to rise above... However the damage was done because Kylo woke up. Luke's disillusionment of himself because of his own failures is perfectly reasonable... And at the end he changes his mind, he is brought back from the brink once again. It is honestly a much more real and realistic exploration of his character than any of the nonsense in Legends lore. I know a lot of people either remember only his big hero moment at the end of Jedi or liked his godly status in legends, and had a hard time understanding him in TLJ, but if you go through and actually rewatch the original trilogy, his character is pretty damn in line from those to TLJ.

Anakin falls to the dark side, starts slaughtering jedi, fails to save his wife and blames Obi-wan for it. He's so far gone it would be stupid for him to instantly turn back. You didn't say silly. You said stupid.



Poe regresses. The last battle of TLJ is their only option to save themselves and he calls off the attack because he sees people dying around him. He makes this decision due to his superiors either chastising him for loses while taking out a superweapon at the beginning (which crazy enough saved them all) or withholding information needlessly that leads to his failed plan and more death. With his information in the first two instances he made the right decisions for the best outcomes. In the last battle he questions his judgement and calls off the only option they have. Without the Luke/crystal foxes ex-machina he has doomed them all to certain death.



His arc goes nowhere in this movie. All of his development is in TFA in the form of going from trying to run away from his past to devoting himself to Rey. TLJ doesn't change that. All of his actions are in service to Rey.




I may have worded this incorrectly putting my gripe above the gripe I have with the general story telling. Rey has spent most of her life yearning for her parents return. Shes told (and believes it would seem) that they were shitty people that didn't love her and sold her off. This is after being disillusioned with Luke and she proceeds to fail at saving Kylo. The very next scene she is in shes shrugged all of that off. The only comparison you could really make is Luke in ep4 after Obi-Wan dies. That's comparing a 2 day relationship to a life long parent complex.

Maybe you were talking about ep4 when speaking of Han? In 5 they get completely beaten and actually end in a somber mood while clinging to hope.

As for Luke. Like I said that's the most subjective one. If we actually explored his fall it could have been incredibly satisfying. A 20 second "I almost assassinated my nephew" is basically a slap in the face imo. We skipped 30 years and come back to all of the OT heros being broken people and it all happens off screen.

I only read like 1 series with Luke in it from the EU. I never really considered any of the books meaningful. All of what I say is from the Skywalker saga.