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Mar 19 2023 05:06pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 19 Mar 2023 20:09)
The bootlickers are thriving it seems, good luck when you all get drafted mobiks.

And kudos to ^ferdia for enabling the bullshit, well done man.


True, minus it's not bullshit from ferdia but more likely a gaffe/failure.

Quote (dro94 @ 19 Mar 2023 23:35)
Correction: it was a massive mistake for the Americans. They committed 95% of the invading force, and even more of the occupying force. We didn't commit that much.
The main damage we suffered was arguably reputational, but still, that was directed more at Blair than the nation. I've always found it a bit of a shame that the best PM we had since Attlee destroyed his reputation from one foreign policy blunder that didn't have domestic consequences.
Ultimately he acted on MI6 intelligence and pressure from the Americans, he was rational in his decision making and genuinely thought it was for the good of the people there.


Blair cursed himself, did non stop mea culpa since then.
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Mar 19 2023 05:15pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 19 2023 10:50pm)
They were also apparently emboldened after NATO intervention in Bosnia. Bush and Blair that is; Not to mention the influence of the neo-conservative sociopathic un-convicted war criminals:
Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton(Who apparently is considering running for president), Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell.

Not a surprise that after politics Blair went to Israel to "resolve the Palestine/Israel conflict" or in other words, sell more arms to anyone who will purchase them.




Quote (fender @ Mar 19 2023 11:06pm)
purely speculative and rather doubtful in my personal opinion.

the consequences, the damage i'm talking about is not the loss of reputation or even that of soldiers, but the lives of millions of iraqis, syrians, kurds... who died in the wake of that war. it destabilised the whole region and directly led to the creation of ISIS. downplaying the scope of involvement by one particular participant doesn't really change that.
a resolute "no" by UK leadership, not providing them with transparently false "evidence" through UK intelligence, might not have dissuaded the yanks entirely, but who knows what would have happened if they had been made to go in alone, and not with the semblance of international support backing their crusade...

not that any of those speculations would change my conclusion that the likes of blair and bush should at least have faced a trial before the ICC, trying to get to the bottom of the facts. of course that's not the fault of the court, it's a good institution in theory, just useless in practice when the main warmonger nations simply don't acknowledge it.


It's well established that Richard Dearlove and John Scarlett in the MI6 gave Blair bad intelligence about WMD in Iraq, I watched a documentary about it recently that was very evidence-based so it's not conjecture at all.

Seems like your gripes are not with deposing Saddam, but with the poorly thought out plans for occupation by the Americans. That didn't have much to do with us, even though you could argue Blair is partially responsible for it too.

If we said no, America would DEFINITELY have still invaded Iraq. Bush and Cheney were ready to go 6 months before, and Blair persuaded them to wait for the UN to send more UNSCOM. Iraq then kicked UNSCOM out and the rest is history.
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Mar 19 2023 05:19pm
Quote (dro94 @ Mar 19 2023 11:15pm)
https://imgur.com/fjWRt2B.gif



It's well established that Richard Dearlove and John Scarlett in the MI6 gave Blair bad intelligence about WMD in Iraq, I watched a documentary about it recently that was very evidence-based so it's not conjecture at all.

Seems like your gripes are not with deposing Saddam, but with the poorly thought out plans for occupation by the Americans. That didn't have much to do with us, even though you could argue Blair is partially responsible for it too.

If we said no, America would DEFINITELY have still invaded Iraq. Bush and Cheney were ready to go 6 months before, and Blair persuaded them to wait for the UN to send more UNSCOM. Iraq then kicked UNSCOM out and the rest is history.


Blair is complicit in war crimes. This is not a conspiracy.
Ask David Kelly how Alistair Campbell instructed him to provide a pretense to invade.

Deflect all you want, your boys in Westminster are some top-grade Eton schooled warmongers, and you bend at the knees and vote em in everytime :lol:
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Mar 19 2023 06:06pm
Quote (dro94 @ 20 Mar 2023 00:15)
https://imgur.com/fjWRt2B.gif



It's well established that Richard Dearlove and John Scarlett in the MI6 gave Blair bad intelligence about WMD in Iraq, I watched a documentary about it recently that was very evidence-based so it's not conjecture at all.

Seems like your gripes are not with deposing Saddam, but with the poorly thought out plans for occupation by the Americans. That didn't have much to do with us, even though you could argue Blair is partially responsible for it too.

If we said no, America would DEFINITELY have still invaded Iraq. Bush and Cheney were ready to go 6 months before, and Blair persuaded them to wait for the UN to send more UNSCOM. Iraq then kicked UNSCOM out and the rest is history.


can you link me that documentary? does it make a credible case that they intentionally and successfully mislead blair? or could the evidence (which we obviously all know was bs today) have been bad, but he was in the know or at the very least suspected it, and just "accepted" it regardless to have plausible deniability, in case the decision he was going to make anyway turned out to be a mistake? because that's my impression - and it's what many people speculated at the time.

again, there were many parties that rejected the flimsy "evidence" and insisted on a diplomatic solution - despite all the pressure from america.

to be clear, i'm not saying the evidence being bad is conjecture, i'm saying i find it doubtful that the head of intelligence, regardless of political affiliation, could just easily dupe a PM into such a meaningful and terrible decision with some fake evidence - as if blair, who definitely isn't a moron, didn't have any loyal high-ranking sources within the intelligence community who advised him according to their best knowledge, rather than their own personal agenda.

even if i gave blair all the benefit of the doubt, which you so generously grant him for obvious reasons, i'd still say that an ICC that wanted to be a meaningful and impartial institution should have tried him (as well as heads of british intelligence)...


regarding saddam: he obviously was a terrible human being, a cruel despot, a mass murderer, who most definitely "deserved" to die - but let's not forget who backed and armed him in the first place, and for which reasons (ofc the US and the UK, in order to attack iran and regain control over their oil), and how just deposing him, without a sound strategy for iraq's future, that would predictably plunge the whole region (which hussein undeniably "stabilised", albeit by cruel and inhumane means) into utter chaos.

maybe just invading the country based on lies and rage, trying to hunt that fucker down while leaving behind a trail of death and devastation, wasn't the way to go about it...

This post was edited by fender on Mar 19 2023 06:08pm
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Mar 19 2023 06:10pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Mar 2023 00:19)
Blair is complicit in war crimes. This is not a conspiracy.
Ask David Kelly how Alistair Campbell instructed him to provide a pretense to invade.
Deflect all you want, your boys in Westminster are some top-grade Eton schooled warmongers, and you bend at the knees and vote em in everytime :lol:


President Chirac didn't have better intelligence services than UK, but still catagorically refused to validate Iraq war 2 resolution at UN or to join the Mostly US+UK coalition. Pretty sad to pretend it's the fault of uknown officials...
Blair got depressive after that.
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Mar 19 2023 06:31pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ 20 Mar 2023 01:10)
President Chirac didn't have better intelligence services than UK, but still catagorically refused to validate Iraq war 2 resolution at UN or to join the Mostly US+UK coalition. Pretty sad to pretend it's the fault of uknown officials...
Blair got depressive after that.


i don't think it's entirely impossible that high ranking intelligence officials would go rogue and push their own agenda, but i don't think it's a good enough excuse for a PM, who has all resources at their disposal, and is well aware of the significant opposition (domestic and international) to the rationale of that war - and it's not like those individuals ever faced any kind of consequence for their failures either...

all of blair's public excuses - even the one in which he claims to accept "full responsibility - without exception and without excuse", includes the "bad intelligence" and "american leadership" qualifiers... not that his empty words were backed by any actions to make up for his mistakes in the first place.
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Mar 19 2023 06:44pm
Quote (fender @ 20 Mar 2023 01:31)
i don't think it's entirely impossible that high ranking intelligence officials would go rogue and push their own agenda, but i don't think it's a good enough excuse for a PM, who has all resources at their disposal, and is well aware of the significant opposition (domestic and international) to the rationale of that war - and it's not like those individuals ever faced any kind of consequence for their failures either...

all of blair's public excuses - even the one in which he claims to accept "full responsibility - without exception and without excuse", includes the "bad intelligence" and "american leadership" qualifiers... not that his empty words were backed by any actions to make up for his mistakes in the first place.


This mess fits well with the UK historical "military/conquest zeal", this time it didn't serve them well.
I would bet 80% of UK citizen don't even know about or feel concerned by this story anyway.
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Mar 19 2023 08:30pm
Quote (fender @ Mar 19 2023 10:32pm)
oh look, the crybaby who complained about getting suspended for repeatedly calling people names is reporting posts for absolutely no reason, lol. totally not a hypocrite...



he's clearly one of them. he might TRY to appear neutral when pressed, but he clearly favours moscow's perspective on basically every single issue concerning this war, constantly enabling and supporting blatant kremlin bots and their narratives. this whole thread is set up as an attempt to downplay russia's agency, aggression, and war crimes with lazy whataboutisms, spins, and false equivalences...


You're the hypocrite and I laugh about you bullshit

1) I didn't complain about getting suspended, I pointed out you reported my post after YOU started to complain about getting suspended. The fucking irony, lol

https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=100256228&f=119&o=40

Quote (fender @ Mar 17 2023 08:49pm)
thing is, they simply don't. he's free to stalk / insult / follow me around on multiple accounts, while i get suspended for things as mild as calling someone an "idiot". it's bizarre really...


2) NATO expansion cannot be refuted, it's history, you're clearly uneducated. Git gud scrub

3) This ICC bullshit is politically motivated, none of the Western leaders have been accused of war crimes, they all get away with whatever they do and the US doesn't even recognize the ICC

4) You're a typical NATO shill just like and who completely lost his mind the poor chump.

5) When I reported that chump I openly said so which cannot be more honest, cry more you loser. You lost the debate once again on all fronts.

Loser
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Mar 20 2023 12:17am
Quote (Djunior @ 20 Mar 2023 03:30)

You're the hypocrite
Git gud scrub
the poor chump.
cry more you loser.
Loser


Seek help
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Mar 20 2023 01:46am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 20 2023 07:17am)
Seek help


Quickly checking my bookmarks, pulling out a few examples:

Who needs to seek help, LOL


Quote (Meanwhile @ Dec 10 2022 01:32pm)
Sounds like Putin and the fucked dogs supporting his regime are happy of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlX9nK_Szic


Quote (Meanwhile @ Nov 21 2022 04:01pm)
On a side note this is courageous men and not fuckoffs doing conspiracists theories behind their screens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3cn5dMAS4

Some of their families are still in in Iran.


Quote (Meanwhile @ Dec 21 2022 09:17pm)
Putin's fucked crabs will probably prefer to watch Ukraine being blindly massacred.


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