Nebelkerze nach Hersh's Artikel, sieht wie vom CIA-Feder aus. Da gibt es noch mehr Ungereimheiten: Warum sollten sie ihre professionell gefertigten Pässe zurücklassen? Man braucht eine Menge Sprengstoff, um eine Pipeline unter Wasser zu sprengen, vor allem wasserdicht. Sprenstoffspuren auf einem Tisch der Yacht sind ein Witz.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Mar 9 2023 12:59am

How about option 3:

EU / US / NATO should've stayed out of Ukraine, there would be no sanctions / energy crisis / inflation / death and destruction.

Hope that helped

Basically you mean letting Russians just enslave the free people of Independent Ukraine, who were part of the western world for 30 years. So you basically give a part of the western world to Russia.
But lets say we did it, lets say the western world decides to sacrifice part of their democratic world, part of their businesses to please mr Putin.
What happens then?
Russia evil empire grows by 50%.
Ukrainian brave people are conscripted into Russian army. (They will not have another choice)
Russia army grows from 1,5mln to 2,5mln people.
Russia attacks east Europe next.
What do you do then, disband NATO and let Russia take half Europe?
Or you send 2mln American soldiers to fight back Putin? Does America even have that many? (No they don't)
Do you really think these 2 options are better than what we have now?

Cut the crap dude. If EU / US / NATO didn't welcome Ukrainian / Georgian membership in 2008 and didn't stage a coup in 2014 (Euromaidan) proving they were serious, we wouldn't be here today and Ukraine would still be an independent nation. Russia would still be able to lease their naval base (like they did), all would be good.

People like you hate Russia, push for further NATO expansion and you've found out what happens if you push it too far.

Putin would eat Ukraine in every scenerio.
He could eat them peacefully, like he does with Belarus, but its still eating.
You speak bullshit saying that Putin is a good man.
He is evil. He wants to rebuild USSR empire from the past, he literally said it, its all in his letters/speaches.

This post was edited by Ironfister on Mar 9 2023 03:08am

Putin had no reason to invade Ukraine while Ukraine was already under Russia's sphere of influence. Its that simple
NATO attempted to seize it by force and broke it in half, Russia took back its half by force and devastated the other half

As long as Ukraine was aligned with Russia, headed by a majority pro-Russian government, then it didn't matter what nebulous degree of sovereignty and self-determination they had- they served Russia's interests. They held the status quo ante, they didn't need to aggressively build a empire nor is Russia seizing back a sphere of influence we tried to take from them in an ongoing war, some grand irredentism.

Yea we said this about 50 times in the topic. While your view is my view, we are in the minority here. Ironfister is from Poland, he has been quite clear that Russia Bad US Good.

Look at Belarus.
When Russia started war, they made Belarusian help them. In fact its a wonder that they still keep Łukashenko alive.
Lukashenko needs to balance to stay alive.
They attacked Ukraine from Belarus territory.
They took all the equipment from Belarusian troops to help them in war.
Now there are rumours of further inclusion of Belarus into Russia.
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-plans-belarus-absorption-by-2030-media-reports/a-64771429
Belarus is now simply a state of Russia, although Łukashenko tries not to get directly involved in the war. He is playing a risky game, and can be assasinated anytime and Putin take full control.


Putin needs the Ukraine to rebuild USSR. He needed 40million brave Ukrainians as workers and soldiers. This is the reason to invade Ukraine. Anything else, saying that he is scared of peaceful people of NATO, is just bullshit and lies

Do you know that Soviet Warsaw Pact was way more powerful than NATO during the cold war?
NATO were just extremely lucky, that Soviet leaders weren't like Putin and had no balls to start a war.
Now we were lucky that USSR collapsed and countries joined the west.
And the risk was gone. Russia has become much smaller.
Now the people like you say: "Hey, lets give all Warsaw Pact countries back to Russia, what could possibly go wrong?"
"We didnt have a war between 45 and 89 so it was cool, and there is no problem and no risk of real war"
That's your kind of thinking. This is silly.

From a historical, cultural, economic and social perspective, the Polish position is virtually impossible to argue against. The west has been very very good to Poland and Poland remembers.

However, your understanding of what we are saying here in this topic is woefully inadequate, and is to my mind as a direct result of the above. It is for this reason that I won't refute or try to correct what you are saying. However if you want me to refute you, just ask, and I will.