Europe is biggest USA trade partner. We also share liberal values, and both compose the liberal western world.
How much IBM income is Europe? Google? Facebook? Ford? Havent checked but probably like half.
Also its true that some countries in Europe play their own politics, like Germany, on the other hand some others like UK, Poland, maybe some more eastern European countries, are close allies to USA.
We buy USA Jet fighters, USA tanks, patriot missiles, himars system. This is a lot for money for USA and your military business.
After Ukraine repels Russia aggression, they would be close USA allies, that's for sure.
Just the close allies countries I mentioned are 150-200mln people, maybe more. USA standalone is only 320mln people. Whole Europe is like 600mln people, if USA wants to stay a world leader you need to use us as your country extension.
you cant just stay on your continent, as that would mean slowly decline and loosing your status of a world power, giving it up. China taking your world leader place all over the world.
And for sure loosing world power status wont be pleasant experience to Americans.
Please note that Im aware that Europeans need to increase their military. Poland for example is expected to increase its army by like 50% in the coming years. That should be enough to handle of what's left of Russia army.
We understand our security cannot rely on USA taxpayers and that we need to pay our bills.

So your argument is that because you buy stuff from us that we could just as easily sell to Russia or China or India, that the US simply cannot survive without Europe? What a load of laughable horse shit.

The cost of doing business with any EU nation is that you will be pulled in front of an EU committee at some point, and they will fine you millions or billions over some trumped up violation. One prime example: Microsoft, on their own operating system, preinstalls their own browser. Cool! I have a way to access the internet so I can download Chrome or Firefox or Opera or something. EU? BAM! $744 million fine. Apparently Microsoft is now required to include a competitor's product on their product? Wut? The best part of this is that at no point in the history of Windows or Internet Explorer/Edge has Microsoft done anything whatsoever to prevent anyone from downloading and installing a different browser.

Don't be sat there telling me just how "important" Europe is to US companies. Fuck that. Microsoft goes to China, and China's like YAY! Then Microsoft opts to pay $3 a week for people to develop Microsoft branded games for the Microsoft store? YAY! We're rich! Microsoft turns around and charges the same people they pay $3 a week $9.99 for the game they themselves developed? YAY! We can afford this awesome game!

Europeans take for granted that we will sell them our shit, that we will secure their nations, that we'll intercede in their wars, and that they have a right to dictate how OUR companies and OUR governments operate.

Fuck Eurotrash. You can't even handle a minor dispute between Russia and Ukraine. Need big Nanny America to intercede. You're bloody fucking useless.

Minor dispute xD
Russia: Hey Ukraine, why dont you come back to soviet union? We had some nice history together when we starved to death millions of Ukrainians and we surely need to repeat that because our own people are jelaus of you becoming richer, we also need some fresh slaves for our Syberian cold areas.
Ukraine: no thanks Russia, we better stick with the liberal western world, we are doing fine where we are, thanks.
Russia: Well, we will attack you then and bring you back on your knees to us and we will starve you guys even more. Last chance to reconsider.
Ukraine, fuck you, you will not take us alive
Russia: then so be it, we have a great military that will take your country in 3says
Ukraine: fuck you, we have army too, if you want war then so be it.

I wonder how you solve such a "minor dispute" inside Europe...

About China, they arent stupid. You showed them how to make smartphones, now they make and sell Xiaomi, Huawei, Realme and other brands for fraction of iPhone price, and iPhone has only like 15% world mobile sales.
Europe is divided. We are like 50 small countries, every country makes its own politics over here, which kind of means we cant become a world power ourselves. As a huge country you have the opportunity to make profit of it.
Of course you can always give up your leader role, its USA decision to make.

I was hoping you'd respond. Had more to say, but didn't want to go full wind-bag.

So let's talk about the minor dispute. I've outlined, in this topic, the last 8 years of history that have led to this dispute. I've outlined the actions taken to exacerbate it. Now, let's discuss what to do about it:

First, the US Military has absolutely zero need to be involved. US arms manufacturers should be perfectly capable of selling to both sides, neither is our enemy or ally. Russia is our trade partner, Ukraine is just nothing. But those need to be SALES. Any "giving" of weapons or arms to Ukraine is stealing the paychecks of US Taxpayers for a European regional dispute.

Were it to come to boots on the ground, the US has no business there. It's a world away. What, 6K miles give or take? Since PaRD is full of progressives, let's hit up a few progressive talking points, shall we? Climate change for instance... Do you know just how much fuel it takes to transport weapons, armor, vehicles, artillary, ammunition, and troops to Ukraine? Any idea just what kind of tonnage we're talking about in carbon emissions? You're destroying the planet for the purpose of war! [insert comedic scream here]. So tell me, why is it that the US is giving more aid to Ukraine than any other nation on the planet, when it costs the US the most to do so, and causes the most global warming for the US to even be involved?

Why can't the EU band together and provide all the needs of Ukraine's defense? For that matter, why can't the EU, the single most powerful coalition of nations ever formed on this planet intercede directly? You're right there, you don't have to cross any oceans, you're already armed I assume, I mean, you fuckwits wouldn't dare fail to meet your NATO quotas on defense spending, would you?

No, stop bullshitting yourself. This is not Checkers. The EU is terrified of Russia. Russia holds a larger nuclear arsenal than the entire EU combined. Russia has new military tech and equipment that is relatively unknown because the EU has continually shut themselves off from Russia. The EU only has a basic idea of what Russia is capable of, they're terrified of confronting them... And that's just those nations in the EU that think Russia is a problem, or that there should be any intervention whatsoever. Ask Germany, or for that matter, any nation that relies on Russian Natural Gas to survive the winter, or Russian oil to get to work. As it turns out, more than a few EU nations agree with me 100%: It does not benefit us to get involved, and we don't necessarily agree with the idea that Ukraine is deserving of help. But wait! There's more! You guessed it, Germany is still encouraging the US to provide aid. Why is that? They know that it will hurt the US, and in the end, may help the EU? It'll help destabilize and possibly bankrupt the US? Possibly Ukraine could be the final straw, as Afghanistan was for the USSR?

No, Europeans are not stupid. Nor are they any friend of America. Fuck off with that noise, we have neither obligation nor reason to help Ukraine. Biden's a fucking idiot driving our nation to bankruptcy as fast as he can. Don't be sat there trying to explain to us why that's a good thing. We're not stupid. And the fact that you believe we're that stupid speaks poorly of you.

I told you that Europe are many countries that dont necesarily work together.
Im not german, i dont even like german politics, ok?
If you ask me, german politics dont really want to help Ukraine much, if any.
They like how they rule whole Europe, and accepting a big Ukraine country would mean that they could lose part of their political dominating status.
And since when does USA republican care about global warming? Global warming is a problem of course, but it cannot paralyze us when there is war going on. We didnt choose the war, Russia did, and they are to be blamed for increased global warming.
Joe Biden is a great president of USA, he thinks strategically, long term, how to keep USA as a World leader, despite low population.
All the attempts to downscale USA will not do good for USA. But Well, I guess we wont convince each other.
You are under Russian propaganda my friend. Im not saying that Trump was Russia agent, but Russia helped Trump gets elected, and such gifts from Russia/China arent free.
Even here in Poland, a single prorussian party we have was very active to elect Trump. Why was that since the polish people obviously cant even vote in USA? Because it was in Russia interest to get every single vote for Trump they could squeze. They spam 1-2million polish people with Trump propaganda, just because Moscow ordered them to do it.
Russia/China wants USA to downscale and to resign, to become a small country, irrelevant. Think about it.

This post was edited by Ironfister on Jun 2 2022 01:33am

Russia lives rent free in the heads of tards everywhere. Just like Trump

im sorry, im not reading all that (10 pages). i will write it off as "i slept it out".

Just some Russian-influenced people saying all the same moscow-inspired lies over and over. Nothing particulary interesting.

Gonna try different and respond line by line:

Would it shock you to know that the US is not a monolith? We're made up of 50 states that don't necessarily work together?
Nobody likes German politics, not even Germans. Though you should follow them. Seeing them promise to provide heavy artillary to Ukraine, train Ukrainian soliders in the use of that artillery, then refuse to give over the artillery because "We don't think it's necessary" had me rolling.
I agree. I believe Germany is willing to pretend like they'll help so the Biden admin can point at them and say, "See! Even the Germans are helping!" only for Germany to back out at the last moment. Good times. We can talk about natural gas, oil, etc. But NN. Their actions in the last few weeks say more than words.
Not going to disagree. Germany won their primary goal from WWII (rule of Europe) and got rid of Hitler at the same time. Irony.
So global warming is only a problem until it comes time to start murdering people? Fun! What other existential crises can we put on hold by involving ourselves in war? Can we go back to using gas vehicles, or should we stick with using electric vehicles that work off the grid, which is powered some 21.8% by coal and overall 80% from fossil fuels? Oh, I'm not and have never been a republican, btw. I fall under a nearly forgotten category called "Liberal". These days called something closer to "Classical Liberal". Lot in common with both Conservatives and Libertarians, of the less authoritarian bent. Definitely not Republican. Or Democrat.
Biden has destroyed US energy Independence, caused record inflation, attempted to convince states to remain locked down for over a year after lockdowns were proven harmful, is printing so much money that the entire USD which backs 90% of the nations on the planet that inflation is hitting the entire world because there's more supply of money and a lower supply of goods... Great President? History will view him as the worst President in US history up to this point. If you care to sit through it, I can write you a list of every Biden failure, but for now, we'll just agree to disagree, fair?
I do not understand what you mean. Downscale the USA? This is already done. We've had 90% of all manufacturing jobs outsourced, half the telecommunications jobs, and even 2/3rds of the high tech jobs outsourced, we've crushed the education system so they no longer teach skills in K-12, merely prepare you for college, which costs six figures and depending on what you take, may teach you no useful skills either. Downscaling? We're outsourcing industry, inflating our currency so much that the retirements and savings of the overwhelming majority of the working class is now worth dog shit, and attempting to price people out of basic transportation by taxing them per mile travelled, absolutely destroying the rural working class. Downscale? What are you talking about?
What Russian Propaganda am I under? I don't deal with RT or even know what other source I'd go to. I don't use social media (unless JSP counts). Exactly what propaganda do you believe I'm consuming? I've been following the history of Ukraine since 2014. Kind of had to, given there were whispers of war back under Obama when Russia annexed Crimea. Your conspiracy theory regarding Trump is false. The Mueller Report determined that there were some russian bot farms and a few thousand dollars of ads were taken out. Yet some ads promoted clinton, others promoted Trump, same with the bots. There was zero anything that indicated the election was swayed or even impacted by Russia. Merely that they were stirring shit up. There was zero connection found between the Russian Government and Trump. Bottom line? If there's corruption, it's centered squarely on Joe Biden, his son Hunter, and Ukraine. Funny that I can't think of a single thing that connects the US to this minor conflict in Ukraine other than the Biden family. There's nothing worthwhile to be gained by supporting Ukraine outside... The Biden family. Weird.
You seem to be referring to propaganda seen in Poland? I'm confused, what does that have to do with the US?
Russia doesn't and never did want the US to resign or downscale. That was a Soviet dream. Today's Russia only wants to trade with us. We've had precisely zero hostilities with Russia outside of the Ukraine situation. You could say Syria was an exception, but we didn't go after Russians and they didn't go after us in Syria. So no worries there. For now, at the very least, China doesn't want us to resign or downscale. They will want that, but not yet. They still have the basic issue that they're absolute shit at developing anything new. They take the new shit others develop, re-create it, then figure out how to improve on it. They still require the innovation of a United States to continue to advance. A time may come where they look forward to our failure. But Russia gains nothing at all. They simply lose one of their largest business partners on the world stage.

Now, if you've made it through that wall of text, that's the first and last time I ever intend to do such a point by point response. You've got some really funny ideas of the position of the US, China, and Russia. It's almost endearing.

I have mild OCD and was seriously considering re-posting that into paragraph's with breaks.