What "well-established fact" am I "attacking Santara" over? Santara didn't post any facts. He claimed we provided security assurances. He then posted the information that disproved his claim. We are under no such obligation. Our obligation is merely to not attack Ukraine. We've met that.

You speak about history, yet we're discussing the actual history of the current government of Ukraine, and your standard response after it's already been shown that any claims regarding any form of security assurances are false is "but sovereign country!" The "let's take a stroll through a history book" is just condescending garbage. This:



Is the best. Who invaded who? Seems to me that three independent republics have had war waged at them from Ukraine for the last 8 years. It's very easy to make the case that Russia is simply coming to the defense of those republics.

Now, I'm not making that assumption. Why? I don't care. I only care about the impacts on the citizens of the United States of America. And quite frankly, any form of involvement whatsoever, including the involvement we already have, harms Americans.

So, a sovereign nation claims to have been invaded, yet there is historical evidence that Ukraine is guilty of attacking independent republics. Why should we put up with annoying, self-aggrandizing keyboard warriors condescending to us?

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Jun 1 2022 07:38pm

I seriously believe I'm not responsible for backing up facts posted by other posters.


Nice what-about-ism - straight from chopsticks and the other trolls playbook.

This post was edited by Cascadian on Jun 1 2022 07:37pm

To me, it's all about Putin wanting to get into the history books.

If i am to even try to understand his/their viewpoint, it is about constant provocations from the "west", which is something real that has been going on for a long time. But it doesn't justify going to war like this. You can always claim sovereignty and work for being independent without claiming everybody else is trying to rip you off or have an agenda.

I mean, he's got control over the biggest country in the world, why would he need to invade Ukraine? It's pointless. He's just doing it because he wants to be in the history books ... but sadly it won't be for the reasons he thinks.

The bottom line is that we just haven't gotten far enough as a humanity yet... it's not many decades ago we woke up from a dark age where everything was ruled by desperation. First now the last 30-40 years has the world started to communicate a bit more civilized and globally. After what, 10 000 years of slavery and tyranny. So we're not home free yet. There's going to be a few more conflicts before we learn to behave like people and not like animals.

But you claimed that santara's "facts" are true. You now have a dog in this fight. Put up or shut up.

They are true. Feel free to read a 6th grade level news article on the subject.

This post has absolutely zero substance, just endless ad homs attacking other people.

I am not surprised at this point tbh. This is how you "debate".

Then the onus on you is to prove that they are true. And no, asking me to read a news article, be it 6th grade level or otherwise, is not proving anything.

But apparently you think it is, lol.

This post was edited by JessiWan on Jun 1 2022 07:39pm

Oh, okay. Feel free to reference the 1992 Lisbon Protocol to find the 13 preconditions the Ukrainian government negotiated that entitled them to security assurances from both Russia and the United States. I'm not sure what you are looking for, like a mathematical proof? The "pen is red"... no matter what I say, can't prove the pen is red.

It's' not a whataboutism. These subjects are directly related. If Russia is simply defending independent republics against big bad Ukraine, then honestly, we should be helping Russia, by your measurement, as Ukraine are the guilty party invading sovereign nations. In fact, one could almost say Russia has behaved with extreme patience, given these republics declared independence 8 years ago.

So, is this an invasion of Ukraine, or is it a police action to keep Ukraine in check? You're the genius, you tell us.

Me? I don't care. Ukraine's existence, in an of itself, has no impact on the US. Russia, on the other hand, has been a valued trade partner who not only helped us win two world wars, but that Europe relies on for a functional power grid. Fuck Ukraine. You haven't listed a single benefit for anyone else to get involved. And yet the government of Ukraine has refused diplomacy of any sort... For 8 years.

The whataboutism you posted, isn't whataboutism? Okay, noted.