LMGTFY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/mar/06/john-bolton/did-vladimir-putin-call-breakup-ussr-greatest-geop/

Bobb asked to see Putin's own writings that he wants to restore the Soviet union. What you quoted is a news article written by some dude.

...and the very next link includes links to his speeches.

I read the third link you provided, and yes Putin did lament the break-up of the Soviet union, however that is not the same as him saying he wants to restore it.

In fact, the article also includes the comments of other scholars who say that that's not what he meant.

So, you've failed to prove anything then? All the Budapest Memorandum says is that we won't military threaten or coerce Ukraine. We haven't. Any form of help or support requires a resolution by the UN Security council, and is to be undertaken as a joint UN action. Has any such resolution occurred? No? Didn't think so.

Regarding the others, Putin claiming that the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-political disaster of our time is simply accurate. That's not a call for the reestablishment of the Soviet Union, it's an acknowledgement that millions of Russians were now stranded outside Russia, dozens of economies now had no shared backbone and could be mistreated by the EU, US, and China (which they have), and due to ongoing US Aggression towards Russia and it's allies (Syria, Libya, and a few others may ring a bell), there was no clear end for economic turmoil in Russia. All of which is verifiably true.

None of what you posted lists Ukraine as an ally, none of what you posted demands we support them in any way in their regional conflict. And some more facts inconvenient to your warmongering "point":

Crimea voted for annexation by Russia. Multiple times. And during the entire process, each time, the US directly tried to intervene in their elections, undermining the democracy in Crimea. The Donbas region has declared independence from Ukraine. The majority population in Donbas is ethnic Russian. The Ukrainian military, led by Asov, has been torturing and killing the citizens of the Donbas republics for the last 8 years. By the terms of the Budapest agreement, Ukraine isn't involved at all. Crimea is already annexed by Russia. Donbas does not belong to Ukraine, they're independent states.

This magical theory that you can arbitrarily say, "Well, what exists doesn't exist because I say it doesn't exist" doesn't work well.

Now, all that being said, I don't care about Ukraine. They can win or lose their little war that should never have happened. They can avoid any form of diplomacy with Russia. That's their problem. They sparked the war by attempting to join NATO, by continuing aggression in the Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics, by building up troops and artillary in Donbask, near Russian borders, signaling an invasion. Ukraine's government has quite literally set up the scenario for this war to take place, then refused any diplomatic resolution whatsoever. Why should US Taxpayers be sacrificing hundreds of billions to support such rank stupidity?

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Jun 1 2022 06:27pm

*Greatest catastrophe of the 20th century*, but he just totally doesn't want to do something about it. Whatever. That's why you got the analysis link for the BBC.



My my my, aren't we fucking obtuse tonight? I fucking wonder why that is??? Surely Russia would never block a resolution aimed at them, would they?

You know it's possible to lament about something while not doing anything about it, right?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you read into Putin's speeches. He literally did not say he wanted to restore the Soviet union. Therefore, Bobb was correct.



Dude I think you should try and address Bobb's points instead of talking like that. He is sincere in wanting to have a dialogue with you.

Speaking of moving the goalpost... Your statement was:



Our agreement was that we would not militarily threaten or coerce Ukraine. That's it. If it was deemed that somebody else was doing so, then the UN Security Council could convene and write up a resolution to provide them support. That's it. We owe Ukraine nothing. We have abided by that agreement 100%. So, you lied. You claimed that we have an obligation to defend them. You claimed that we signed into an agreement giving us that obligation. We don't. We never did. That obligation falls to the UN.

You can throw out the "Well, Russia or China or Germany or France can veto any resolution!" So? That was the case when the agreement was written. We entered into this agreement knowing that all it really said was that we all play nice and leave Ukraine alone. It made no assurances whatsoever towards anyone helping Ukraine.

Ukraine had no usable nuclear weapons. They did not "disarm". The armament that had was Soviet, necessary components for their use were held exclusively by the Russians. Basically, it was just inert trash with no value to Ukraine. Ukraine had no facilities for the safe disposal of those weapons, nor could they use them. The US involvement here was simply because we WANTED Russia to get ahold of them, because at the time, we were working with Russia in an attempt to gather up all of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. We did this knowing they'd keep some, but believing it was worthwhile because much of the worst of it we were able to work with them to disassemble, disarm, and clean up.

Once again, the US neither gains nor loses anything regardless of the winner of this conflict. Our only losses over this conflict are self imposed, and thus far, they are in the tune of hundreds of billions of tax payers dollars worth of support, both weapons and cash, with much of that cash paying their government, that US taxpayers did NOT elect (wtf?) and hundreds of billions worth of lost trade with Russia. Every action we take in support of Ukraine and it's Asov Nazis harms the US and US Taxpayers.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Jun 1 2022 07:02pm

You can't add to any discussion trying to teach basic history. If you refuted that 1.9999999.... was equal to two, I wouldn't bother to "discuss" it either.

You can try to teach history, you can do anything, but you shouldn't use the tone that you used. Seriously, "take a stroll into a history book"? Why would any civil person talk like that?

This post was edited by JessiWan on Jun 1 2022 07:08pm