How could it not?
The data above is great, they are trying to fix a different problem now..

This post was edited by Plaguefear on Apr 22 2019 07:40pm

Back of the napkin math says it's not enough to cover the UBI. Everything is levered, you press on one side of the fulcrum and the other side goes up.

For example, one of the things that is mentioned is the technology tax. Okay, maybe, but you have to understand that higher taxes on corporations means fewer profits, fewer profits means less expenditure on R&D, less expenditure on R&D and our companies might start losing ground to the Huawei's of the world. Fewer profits also means fewer jobs created by those corps. Fewer profits also means less Return on Investment, so once again less capital would be flowing into these companies.

I get the argument but some of the answers are sophomoric as if there is some easy fix that's right in front of our eyes. I don't know what the answer is, maybe a basic UBI is a good idea, maybe some hybrid plan is better. One thing's for sure is if this happens, the borders need to be airtight. Something like 70% of the world lives on under 4 grand a year. Can you imagine what would happen if there was a country where if you only make it there and stay long enough you can collect 3x?

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Apr 22 2019 07:47pm

yang sux

Bernie or bust

There's an old Chinese saying: "It's the high nail that gets pounded down".

I think somewhere along the line, most of us have decided (w/o experiment), that all countries should be equal. That would work, IF all countries had the same economic, humanitarian and at least similar religious ideals.

The problem is, that this is not the case. In fact, you can't take ANY group of even as few as 100 people, and find a homogeneous desire for all IN that group to be equal.

In ANY group of people, some will rise to the top, and want an easier life because they did so. This is where ALL simplistic solutions like socialism, communism, UBI, etc., break down. It's happened repeatedly throughout history. We already KNOW these solutions do NOT work.

MAYBE once all work is done robotically, one or some of these systems MIGHT work. Think Star Trek. No money, no dull grudging work. Everyone has free food, college, healthcare, etc. Only problem is that it's FICTION.

Even in our fictional Star Trek wonderland, there are people and groups that want more than their equal share. This problem is easy to solve in Star Trek. Just give the good guys unbeatable weapons and compassion.
Did anyone ever notice that even psychologically disturbed people in Star Trek, are always cured, and always are happy with the results... or they get a RED shirt and they... die.

This post was edited by Ghot on Apr 22 2019 08:00pm

This is exactly what the situation in Western Europe is for asylum seekers: once an asylum seeker from the muslim world or sub-saharan africa makes it to France/UK/Netherlands/Germany/Sweden/Italy, the various social security benefits that he is immediately entitled to amount to at least tripling his monthly income compared to his situation in his home country; and since deportations are only happening in homeopathic numbers, the vast majority of them (so far) are staying even if their asylum application is ultimately rejected.

What happened in Europe starting in 2015 is exactly the scenario you're talking about.


The tldr is that the UBI can only work if we can find an absolutely bullet-proof way (in the legal sense) of restricting the UBI to american citizens. It must be done in a fashion that makes it impossible for human rights activists, lawyers or activist courts to overturn.

In this regard, Germany should once again serve as a cautionary tale: those legal shenanigans are where things broke down here in Germany when, in 2012, our version of the supreme court issued a landmark ruling that it is unconstitutonal for the state benefits paid out to asylum seekers to be lower than the so-called "socioeconomic minimum". Effectively, this meant that it was impossible to cut benefits to ayslum seekers, even those who entered the country illegally or those whose application had been rejected, below the level of basic welfare paid to Germans. Since entitlements and benefits in the U.S. are generally a lot lower, legal issues arising from attempts at excluding foreigners (who are found to be undeserving in some legal sense) from benefits are less salient in the States. But with an UBI, a myriad of legal pitfalls like this one would become highly relevant all of a sudden.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 22 2019 08:04pm

Wtf are you talking about?

Well maybe if you read it a few times... you'll understand wtf I'm talking about.


/e There's only like 1000 books saying the exact same thing, only more boringly, and using a LOT more paper to do so.

This post was edited by Ghot on Apr 22 2019 08:02pm

It has zero relevance, a negative income tax never at any stage encourages anyone to work less, you are always better off on the higher wage.
It does not make everyone equal either.

i'm simply interested in getting the ball on this ubi thing rolling so we can start talking about it and a realistic version of it can be realized, i expect some version of it will be necessary in the future

This post was edited by duffman316 on Apr 22 2019 08:06pm

Blah, blah, blah. Here, I'll try another way.


On one hand we have diversity, equality, and free everything. On the other hand we have something that's built into every human being. The seven deadly sins. They are: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.

Things like socialism will work 100% of the time for a group of humans that have NONE of the 7 deadly sins. BUT, if even one person in that group have even ONE of the 7 deadly sins, socialism (in this example) falls apart.
Say one person in the group is.... greedy. Oh noes, there goes perfect socialism. Same for sloth, lust, envy, pride, gluttony and wrath.



/e Btw, the bandaid versions of some socialistic system that allow for the reality of the 7 deadly sins... don't work either. This is OLD news.

This post was edited by Ghot on Apr 22 2019 08:14pm