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Jun 1 2022 05:42am
Quote (chopstickz777 @ Jun 1 2022 05:41am)
First of all, there are many Ukrainians that don't want to fight and don't give a damn about Zelensky.

Secondly, Russia is prepared to fight for years and will chip away as much territory as it needs or wants. There is nothing that can stop them from doing this.

The only thing that keeping up the fight accomplishes is getting more Ukrainians killed. More of them die, and for what? The exact same outcome no matter what: losing more territory which will never be regained.


A small number, to be sure. It's amazing how unifying it is to be subject to genocide.

Prepared to fight for years? Putin is on day 98 of his 3 day war. Master strategist.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Jun 1 2022 05:47am)
I don't give two shits about Putin or Zelenskyy either one. Nor should I. Nor should my nation. The regional dispute is not our concern, and does not impact our national security.

On the flipside, gifting them hundreds of billions worth of weapons out of our own national security reserves as well as paying cash so they can pay their government officials (wtf?) while at the same time mass inflation at home is causing the working American's paycheck to have half the purchasing power.

I don't care about Ukraine. I shouldn't care about Ukraine. My government stealing my paycheck and sending it to Ukraine makes me furious. It's their regional dispute. They have the means to resolve it. There's no need to beggar Americans for Ukrainians.

Now if Ukraine wants to openly become an American protectorate... The answer would still be no. This is a European problem. The average American has had enough of playing nanny for Europe. Resolve your own issues. If the EU sees threat, or the UK, or whoever else, fucking dig in. Just don't cry to us when Russia responds.


Of course you do, nothing else explains vomiting the Kremlin line all over the page like you just left Putin in the MSP airport bathroom.
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Jun 1 2022 06:16am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 1 Jun 2022 11:03)
Ukraine is not a woman being raped. Ukraine is a nation that has been unkind to some of it's regions.

Crimea had a referendum. They voted to be annexed by Russia. More than once. This was an overwhelming majority vote.

The Donbas region has literally been raped by the Asov Battalion since 2014, when they declared independence from Ukraine, citing a sham election and massive corruption on unheard of scales.

Ukraine entered an agreement that they would never attempt to join NATO. Ukraine entered an agreement that Russian access to naval ports was a guaranteed. They have attempted to defy both agreements.

Ukraine has attempted to tax energy out of Russia and into Europe, Ukraine has been building up a massive military presence in the Donbas region for the last several years.

Now, as to what Ukraine HASN'T done. They haven't had some illusive ace shooting down dozens of Russian pilots. They didn't have a snake island incident where troops refused to surrender and died valiantly to the last man. They surrendered and were healthy and relatively unharmed in Russian custody, assured they'd be returned to Ukraine after the conflict. They have not acted in good faith regarding arms shipments they've received, especially from the US, with over 80% of all munitions randomly disappearing. They haven't made any great strides in staving off the Russian advance, and have not shown they're competent at much other than propaganda.

Bottom line, rather than other nations continuing to supply hundreds of billions worth of weapons, ammunition, and other military support out of their own coffers, how about Ukraine goes to the table, acknowledges that Crimea and Donbas hates them, NATO will be denied them, and simply acknowledge the reality?

The absolute worst thing anyone anyone did was raise one single opinion regarding Russia-Ukraine. It's their issue, they can deal with it. If Ukraine never expected to have help, they'd have dealt with the Russians diplomatically. Now? Well Ukraine, reap what you sow.


Soviet style referendum. If Russians were to make referendum in New York, they would decide to join Russia too, lol.
Russian raze Donbas, not Ukrainians/Azov.
Donbas is Ukraine. These people are Ukrainian. They speak Russian language, just as the Americans speak english, but speaking Russian doesnt make you Russian, just as speaking english doesnt make you English.
There was a frozen war in Donbas that Russian started in 2014, are you surprised that UA built up their defenses in Donbas?
Tell me, when did Ukraine made a deal with Russia that they wont try to enter NATO? I doubt it.

Russia made a deal with Ukraine, now they broke it in 2014, and now again with a fullscale assault. How do you expect Ukrainians to sit at the table when Russians just dont give a fuck about any deals and just do what they want, when they want?
The reality is that Russia gets their asses badly kicked in Ukraine.
They lost near the Kiyv, then they lost near Kharkiv, then they only made very small advances in Donbas. Nearly total failure of the Russian army.
Of course Im not a prophet, it looks like Russia is loosing now but it can change in the future.

This post was edited by Ironfister on Jun 1 2022 06:18am
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Jun 1 2022 06:32am
Quote (Santara @ 1 Jun 2022 13:42)
A small number, to be sure. It's amazing how unifying it is to be subject to genocide.

Prepared to fight for years? Putin is on day 98 of his 3 day war. Master strategist.


In my opinion, Ukrainian motivation to save their lives and their nation is more than Russian motivation to kill, steal and rape.
So I dont expect Ukrainians to give up, dig their graves and put themselves there to please Russians.
They also know, that caese fire will let Russians regroup, reinforce to strike again in the future. They are smart people.
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Jun 1 2022 06:37am
Quote (Ironfister @ Jun 1 2022 01:32pm)
In my opinion, Ukrainian motivation to save their lives and their nation is more than Russian motivation to kill, steal and rape.
So I dont expect Ukrainians to give up, dig their graves and put themselves there to please Russians.
They also know, that caese fire will let Russians regroup, reinforce to strike again in the future. They are smart people.


your view is based on not understanding why russia invaded in the first place.
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Jun 1 2022 06:47am
Quote (ferdia @ Jun 1 2022 07:37am)
your view is based on not understanding why russia invaded in the first place.


Empire.

Empire is why Russia invaded. Everything else is a lie.
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Jun 1 2022 06:53am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Jun 1 2022 05:41am)
No one need Loots, rapes, executions, shellings Russian supporters here.
PUTIN is the one risking ww3.


Wrong as usual. Do you ever get anything right?
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Jun 1 2022 06:54am
Quote (Santara @ Jun 1 2022 06:47am)
Empire.

Empire is why Russia invaded. Everything else is a lie.


If you call desiring a buffer against reckless NATO expansion (which is the cause of the war in the first place) "empire", then sure.

But of course, not really
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Jun 1 2022 06:56am
Quote (Ironfister @ Jun 1 2022 06:32am)
In my opinion, Ukrainian motivation to save their lives and their nation is more than Russian motivation to kill, steal and rape.
So I dont expect Ukrainians to give up, dig their graves and put themselves there to please Russians.
They also know, that caese fire will let Russians regroup, reinforce to strike again in the future. They are smart people.


Bro your dudes are getting slaughtered by Russian artillery all over the front line on a daily basis. Russia literally never stops shooting.

A ceasefire would benefit Ukraine, not Russia. It is Ukraine which desperately needs a break from overwhelming artillery firepower.

Ukrainian morale is breaking all over Donbass, increasing numbers of units are recording videos demanding heavy equipment or they refuse to fight.
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Jun 1 2022 06:57am
Quote (chopstickz777 @ Jun 1 2022 07:54am)
If you call desiring a buffer against reckless NATO expansion (which is the cause of the war in the first place) "empire", then sure.

But of course, not really


FOH with peddling lies, Ivan. NATO is already on Russia's border. Putin is dying and he wants to reconstitute the USSR before he does.
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Jun 1 2022 06:58am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 1 Jun 2022 12:47)
I don't give two shits about Putin or Zelenskyy either one. Nor should I. Nor should my nation. The regional dispute is not our concern, and does not impact our national security.

On the flipside, gifting them hundreds of billions worth of weapons out of our own national security reserves as well as paying cash so they can pay their government officials (wtf?) while at the same time mass inflation at home is causing the working American's paycheck to have half the purchasing power.

I don't care about Ukraine. I shouldn't care about Ukraine. My government stealing my paycheck and sending it to Ukraine makes me furious. It's their regional dispute. They have the means to resolve it. There's no need to beggar Americans for Ukrainians.

Now if Ukraine wants to openly become an American protectorate... The answer would still be no. This is a European problem. The average American has had enough of playing nanny for Europe. Resolve your own issues. If the EU sees threat, or the UK, or whoever else, fucking dig in. Just don't cry to us when Russia responds.


Europe is like half of USA power. If USA wants to stay a biggest world power, they need to ally with Europe.
Ukraine is 40million people, all central Europe is like 120million people. Its 120million close allies or foes for USA (foes if Russia conquers us and forces us to fight USA/EU).
The additional stake is destroying Russia military, USA guys have a unique chance to get rid of Russian army, without loosing american blood, by simply providing Ukraine with ammunition.
So for USA its definitely worth to keep helping Ukraine if you ask me.
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