Quote (thundercock @ May 23 2022 09:10pm)

I think the only reasonable concession Ukraine could make is to go back to the 2014 borders and have all occupied Ukrainian territory be demilitarized. The 3 regions would be autonomous and maybe we can talk about selling Crimea back to Russia. In addition, Ukraine would need to have security guarantees i.e. be a member of NATO given that Russia has proven to be an existential threat to Ukraine. We'll have to see though. Ukraine is already in a significantly stronger negotiating position than it was a month ago. The situation is very fluid.

I'm not sure if we should listen to the French or Germans because they are incredibly weak and selfish. They couldn't care less about the number of Ukrainians killed as long as they get their energy needs met.

Out of curiosity, would you have supported the Soviet Union ceding all land west of the Urals to the Axis powers? After all, tens of millions of lives would have been saved if Russia did that. Perhaps you might have supported Soviets simply pushing Germany out instead of going on the offensive all the way to Berlin? I want to understand where you draw the line when it comes to your holy, righteous beliefs.

Regarding focusing on ourselves, that's not really biblical at all. We should be doing everything in our power to spread Christianity throughout the world (converting Muslims, atheists, Hindus, etc.) We should be helping 3rd world nations build sustainable infrastructure, affordable food, etc. America has so much excess relative to the rest of the world that it doesn't make sense to focus on ourselves over the truly poor and needy. God isn't buying your justification for your selfish world view and neither am I.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 23 2022 09:26pm)

Also its got to be pointed out how very vulnerable the black sea fleet is right now. Besides it being really outdated tech with point defense that cannot fend off sea skimming missiles, its trapped in the black sea and cannot be reinforced with more naval vessels. Russia is using civilian flagged transports for its supply lines to appease Turkey and pass ships through the Turkish straits, but that means the supply ships are even more vulnerable than normal. They could retreat beyond the range of harpoons into the eastern black sea past Sevastopol, but lose their blockade and supply lines and thus the war, and still be vulnerable

Russia isn't about to let NATO start sinking its navy, this is the most direct path to nuclear escalation

Quote (Skinned @ May 23 2022 08:36pm)

Rights are to be discussed among equals and Russia is burning up a lot of their good will with their constant war crimes. Western European powers have been humoring their Eastern European brethren for way too long. There isn't going to be a nuclear holocaust because Russia doesn't want to cease to exist over a losing a skirmish with a neighbor.

A dying and demented Putin called for this invasion. I know you really really want the Russians to win this conflict, but they aren't. They have showed that they don't even have a professional army.

You aren't winning shit with conscripts lol. Slaves don't fight for their masters very hard.

Quote (thundercock @ May 23 2022 09:10pm)

I think the only reasonable concession Ukraine could make is to go back to the 2014 borders and have all occupied Ukrainian territory be demilitarized. The 3 regions would be autonomous and maybe we can talk about selling Crimea back to Russia. In addition, Ukraine would need to have security guarantees i.e. be a member of NATO given that Russia has proven to be an existential threat to Ukraine. We'll have to see though. Ukraine is already in a significantly stronger negotiating position than it was a month ago. The situation is very fluid.

I'm not sure if we should listen to the French or Germans because they are incredibly weak and selfish. They couldn't care less about the number of Ukrainians killed as long as they get their energy needs met.

Out of curiosity, would you have supported the Soviet Union ceding all land west of the Urals to the Axis powers? After all, tens of millions of lives would have been saved if Russia did that. Perhaps you might have supported Soviets simply pushing Germany out instead of going on the offensive all the way to Berlin? I want to understand where you draw the line when it comes to your holy, righteous beliefs.

Regarding focusing on ourselves, that's not really biblical at all. We should be doing everything in our power to spread Christianity throughout the world (converting Muslims, atheists, Hindus, etc.) We should be helping 3rd world nations build sustainable infrastructure, affordable food, etc. America has so much excess relative to the rest of the world that it doesn't make sense to focus on ourselves over the truly poor and needy. God isn't buying your justification for your selfish world view and neither am I.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 23 2022 09:45pm)

So what is he, a dying and demented madman who will pull the trigger, or a pragmatic waffle that will back down to our threats? It can't be both.
Russia doesn't need good will, it has energy. The rest of the world beyond NATO has been unwilling to join our new iron curtain, even those in our back yard like Mexico. They are no more inclined to sever relations out of some sense of moral righteousness with Russia now than they were with the US during Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Syria, etc. And you know what else Russia has? Nukes. Lots of nukes.

We start sinking that Russian navy like rubber ducks in the tub and that's the point where Russia has to take action, because they either escalate or lose the war. The point where they can't just ignore it. At that point, Russia's options start to converge on those nukes. Is it more likely that Russia would launch a conventional weapon strike on NATO targets in retaliation, or that they'd launch a nuclear strike on non-NATO Ukraine to send a message? I think the latter.

Quote (Skinned @ May 23 2022 08:58pm)

Oh, he is being taken around, Weekend at Bernie's style, with a team of doctors all the time. He is losing control and if he tries to destroy the world grown ups would step in. I say he loses power by going in a sanatorium.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 23 2022 06:32pm)

Would you be willing to trigger an economic downturn on the level of the Great Recession in your own country, just to defend a foreign people or to stick it to the Russians? Because that's what immediately giving up any energy imports from Russia would mean for Western Europe. Also, just one page ago, you have more or less advocated for dragging this war out longer than it needs to be, so that Russia can be weakened as much as possible.

You are in no position to complain about "the French and Germans not caring about killed Ukrainians". ^_^

Quote (ofthevoid @ May 23 2022 06:49pm)

Despite all the propaganda about Russians raping babies and grannies they are no where near what Nazi Germany was. They aren't the global existential threat shoving millions of Jews into ovens. What they are doing now is much more similar to what we did in Iraq. They've yet to make a dent in our body count comparatively speaking if we're honest.

Sending tens of billions in weapons to fight a war which will lead to hundreds of thousands dead =/= aid to save the poor through infrastructure, food, etc. We weren't spreading Christianity or Christian values when we went to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc, what an idiotic equivalence. This isn't the crusades 2.0. We're not the defenders of Christianity but perpetrators and enforcers of a world order which smacks anyone down that doesn't get in line.

I'm glad you're okay with being replaced though, in a generation or two with enough Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, eastern Europeans here we will breed out this toxic archaic Anglo Saxon neocolonialism supremacy complex.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 23 2022 10:03pm)

And I say that if Putin reaches the point where his options are total failure or using nukes, he'll use nukes.
We can make a wager out of it, what should the stakes be, a can of coke? Or how about the entire world?

Quote (thundercock @ May 23 2022 10:07pm)

Why does it matter if Nazi Germany was significantly worse? There would be no reason for them to expand past the Urals so why not just let them have it? Or, if you really care about Soviet sovereignty, just push them out of the territory. The Nazis were basically defeated at Stalingrad and after Kursk they were REALLY screwed. I'm just trying to understand your devout Christian foreign policy.

Also, I'm not sure what Iraq has to do with this? I'm not the one pretending to use Christianity as the cornerstone of my foreign policy...

I don't really identify with Anglo Saxons... Protestants are heretics and will likely have to spend centuries in Purgatory.