d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev18438448458468475001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 56,455
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 580,181.52
May 21 2022 04:02pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ May 21 2022 09:32pm)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/america-ukraine-war-support.html

whats this? the new york times is questioning the ukraine narrative?


paywall, any chance you can dump some of it here ?

the narrative i have seen to date is that the american political establishment, in its entirety, is behind this massive aid package to ukraine, its win win as far as they are concerned ?

This post was edited by ferdia on May 21 2022 04:13pm
Member
Posts: 39,749
Joined: Nov 16 2005
Gold: 13.37
May 21 2022 05:15pm
Quote (ferdia @ 22 May 2022 01:02)
paywall, any chance you can dump some of it here ?

the narrative i have seen to date is that the american political establishment, in its entirety, is behind this massive aid package to ukraine, its win win as far as they are concerned ?


Massive kickback for Lend-Lease. Win-win since Ukraine doesn't have to pay for destroyed military equipment (which surely will be destroyed) and manufacturers will get paid by US. That was just off the top of my head.
Member
Posts: 38,137
Joined: May 28 2006
Gold: 0.00
May 21 2022 05:19pm
Quote (ferdia @ May 22 2022 01:02am)
paywall, any chance you can dump some of it here ?


here is a tip how you can avoid paywall on any news website:

take the article link, and paste it into the Wayback Machine (internet archives site), you will be able to view it through that in full

https://archive.org/web/ -> post link inside of it

RESULT: https://web.archive.org/web/20220519190736/http://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/america-ukraine-war-support.html/
Member
Posts: 4,621
Joined: Jan 30 2021
Gold: 751.50
May 21 2022 05:20pm
Quote (ferdia @ May 22 2022 12:02am)
paywall, any chance you can dump some of it here ?

the narrative i have seen to date is that the american political establishment, in its entirety, is behind this massive aid package to ukraine, its win win as far as they are concerned ?


i can only drop the translation of a german article talking about it

main points

- a long and costly war is not in americas interest and neither is a full escalation. selensky needs to be told that the support is not unlimited

- joe biden throwing money into ukraine with no endgame/plan

- are the united states really working towards an end of the conflict or is it about weakening russia

- the american public has more pressing domestic concerns right now

- despite a somewhat decent defensive effort its unrealistic to believe that ukraine will get all its territory back

its pretty funny that the times out of all papers is doing, when i make the same arguments for a while here now only to have the saucis and fenderps call me a pootin supporter

link here

https://www-berliner--zeitung-de.translate.goog/politik-gesellschaft/neue-haltung-zur-ukraine-new-york-times-klingt-ploetzlich-wie-sahra-wagenknecht-li.229127?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Member
Posts: 56,455
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 580,181.52
May 21 2022 05:27pm
Quote (HeLiCaL @ May 22 2022 12:19am)
here is a tip how you can avoid paywall on any news website:

take the article link, and paste it into the Wayback Machine (internet archives site), you will be able to view it through that in full

https://archive.org/web/ -> post link inside of it

RESULT: https://web.archive.org/web/20220519190736/http://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/america-ukraine-war-support.html/


thx!
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
May 21 2022 05:37pm
Quote (ferdia @ 21 May 2022 23:27)
thx!


and never forget it's not neutral when there's an "opinion" near the title ...
Member
Posts: 2,664
Joined: Dec 4 2011
Gold: 6.66
May 22 2022 04:39am
Quote (Ironfister @ May 21 2022 10:26am)
We Should Say It. Russia Is Fascist.

People disagree, often vehemently, over what constitutes fascism. But today’s Russia meets most of the criteria that scholars tend to apply. It has a cult around a single leader, Vladimir Putin. It has a cult of the dead, organized around World War II. It has a myth of a past golden age of imperial greatness, to be restored by a war of healing violence — the murderous war on Ukraine.

Many hesitate to see today’s Russia as fascist because Stalin’s Soviet Union defined itself as antifascist. But that usage did not help to define what fascism is — and is worse than confusing today.

In 1939, the Soviet Union joined Nazi Germany as a de facto ally, and the two powers invaded Poland together. Nazi speeches were reprinted in the Soviet press and Nazi officers admired Soviet efficiency in mass deportations. But Russians today do not speak of this fact, since memory laws make it a crime to do so. World War II is an element of Mr. Putin’s historical myth of Russian innocence and lost greatness — Russia must enjoy a monopoly on victimhood and on victory. The basic fact that Stalin enabled World War II by allying with Hitler must be unsayable and unthinkable.

Stalin’s flexibility about fascism is the key to understanding Russia today. Under Stalin, fascism was first indifferent, then it was bad, then it was fine until — when Hitler betrayed Stalin and Germany invaded the Soviet Union — it was bad again. But no one ever defined what it meant. It was a box into which anything could be put. Communists were purged as fascists in show trials. During the Cold War, the Americans and the British became the fascists. And “anti-fascism” did not prevent Stalin from targeting Jews in his last purge, nor his successors from conflating Israel with Nazi Germany.

Soviet anti-fascism, in other words, was a politics of us and them. That is no answer to fascism.

A time traveler from the 1930s would have no difficulty identifying the Putin regime as fascist. The symbol Z, the rallies, the propaganda, the war as a cleansing act of violence and the death pits around Ukrainian towns make it all very plain. The war against Ukraine is not only a return to the traditional fascist battleground, but also a return to traditional fascist language and practice. Other people are there to be colonized. Russia is innocent because of its ancient past. The existence of Ukraine is an international conspiracy. War is the answer.

Fascists calling other people “fascists” is fascism taken to its illogical extreme as a cult of unreason. It is a final point where hate speech inverts reality and propaganda is pure insistence. It is the apogee of will over thought. Calling others fascists while being a fascist is the essential Putinist practice. Jason Stanley, an American philosopher, calls it “undermining propaganda.” I have called it “schizofascism.” The Ukrainians have the most elegant formulation. They call it “ruscism.”

Had Ukraine not resisted, this would have been a dark spring for democrats around the world. If Ukraine does not win, we can expect decades of darkness.

Source and full text:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/russia-fascism-ukraine-putin.html


Well written imo.
Member
Posts: 39,749
Joined: Nov 16 2005
Gold: 13.37
May 22 2022 05:31am
It's called cryptofascism.
Member
Posts: 28,884
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev18438448458468475001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll