Yah replacing a corrupted Extreme Muslim government with a Liberal Corrupted government who is on the American's side is so much freedom and democracy.
Also, you illegally attacked a sovereign nation who has got nothing to do with the 9/11 Attacks.
The perpetrator is a Saudi whom you trained as part of CIA operatives in the late 1970s to fight the Soviet Commies.

External, well right. Armia Krajova was an external military force.

In the round this topic relates to Russia's impending and eventual invasion of Ukraine, reasons for said event, the events occurring, and what may happen next. However I dont mind these sub topic's as to my mind its all interconnected. in terms of the current conversation what I would say is:

America does not force feed the english language on countries it has open (or convert) operations/exercises in. America is not expansionist in the normal sense of the word. i.e. its exercises are not to directly acquire land. American foreign policy can be best described as: protecting the free (democratic) world, attempting to bring democracy to the "underdeveloped" world, thwarting Russian and Chinese interests and maintaining or growing its state as a superpower. America has carried out various exercises (wars or however you want to call them) and has attempted to bring "freedom" and "liberty" (but i would prefer the term "democracy"). In this regard the idea to my mind of American foreign policy is: "if they are democratic like us then it means they are somewhat like us and we can work with them, but if they are not democratic they have serious flaws that is an affront to our way of life and therefore we need to either change their culture / model of governance, or prevent same from expanding".

I think thats a fair assessment ? does anyone want to repute/challenge this ?

May I chime in to this party of tolerance, humaneness, democracy, liberalism and equality with breaking news?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples

I think i provided that link about 200~250 pages ago, but like post #74? video, I see no reason not to remind people. Also, to expand on the point (which i also did at the time) the blunt fact is that democracy is a form of government, it does not equate to being a moral society noting historically we (westerners) were only to eager to wipe out those we deemed lesser human beings, while at the same time being democratic. in this regard we could be considered worse then dictators as when a dictator does it he is basically the law, but when a democratic country does it, the country is complicit noting the people voted for that government. In this regard historically we have not had benign democracies.

in this regard Englands actions re: Iraq are shameful. i.e. did not divulge material facts to their own people, hid it, and no punishment for said government after the fact. The same applies to brexit of course. providing a false narrative, lies and using peoples basic fears to bring change which they knew was detrimental to their people. democratically elected indeed.

This post was edited by ferdia on May 19 2022 09:43am

From posts 1 to 200-ish when I saddenly joined the discussion I was trying to gather my thoughts to somewhat literary not obscene, but yeah, sometimes I'm undertaking worthy comments as I think that it's not shamefull to repeat someone more intelligent than you are (like you and Hamsterbaby).

Not sure but it sounds like you're saying what America does is ok because we're the good guys. Although I agree that democracy is good we have to understand that other countries might disagree.

History proves that intervention often doesn't work even if it's a relatively small country when they're prepared to go the distance like determined / die-hard Vietnamese or religious fanatics like the Taliban.

Now we're dealing with a (former) superpower that possesses 6K nukes.

im not saying its good or bad, im merely outlining what i believe to be america's motives. ultimately the world is a complex place. Iran getting nuclear missiles is inevitable, therefore american policy relating to iran is just flat out wrong. Israel has a population of 7M and is surrounded on all sides, they would be better off not shitting on children (gaza/palastine/muslim countries) as they too will grow up, so in this regard america is also going down a dead end. As already commented America's aim to weaken Russia makes no logical sense when noting China's growth, we have alot more in common with Russia then with China. There was no need for the events that led to this war.

You cannot force democracy on countries, or certainly america has failed completely in its attempts to do so. as i have already said earlier in the topic democracy is all well and good but its not the only way to govern a country. not being a democracy does not equate to being hell on earth.

This post was edited by ferdia on May 19 2022 09:50am

America is not an expansionist in a normal sense because they practice a " Carrot and Stick " strategy with their neighbours , allies and countries where their interest is at.
There is no point invading a country because it cost too much money to maintain and they have at certain points in the past 40 to 50 years experience that.
The death of American citizens in a foreign land is extremely detrimental to "votes" of the incumbent party.

Please also bear in mind that American with Gorbachev somehow brought Democracy to Russia with the Collapse of Soviet Union. But somehow it ended up as we are right now with this thread discussing about the invasion of Ukraine.

In this regard the idea to my mind of American foreign policy is: "if they are democratic like us then it means they are somewhat like us and we can work with them, but if they are not democratic they have serious flaws that is an affront to our way of life and therefore we need to either change their culture / model of governance, or prevent same from expanding".


I would like to elaborate on this particular quote, the American government have never worked on democratic values in that sense. When they are working the West or so called their traditional allies, lets start with Five eyes and EU, yes the values are there. But when it comes to other parts of the world who holds certain geographical, resource and strategic interest, The idea of Western Democratic value do not apply. It simply meant , as long as my interest is protected, I am find with whatever government system you are, as long as you are not too drastic with some of your actions. And if you do not toe my line and protect my interest, I will send democracy and freedom over until you toe my line or the new government protect my interest.

South America is considered America's backyard, I am sure we have some idea throughout the past 40 to 50 years, how the American government have helped some dictators stayed in power or have a hand in promoting them.
Iran was a democratic country until they decided to nationalized their oil and gas industry which threaten British Petroleum and as the story goes we know how the Americans helped the Shah get back to power.
Saddam was supported by the USA until he went rogue.

Ex President of Philippines Marcos was supported by the USA until he met up with Mao Zedong but I have to mention Marcos was corrupted to the core.
Lets look at Panama as well.

That is how i look at it.

Truman doctrine