Apparently not everyone knows this, which is quite fascinating. It's almost like they need an in-person demonstration for scientific purposes.

"I CAN'T BREATHE!" -George Floyd, while a police officer's knee was continuously applying pressure upon his neck.

that's a complete inversion of the standard of proof.
and this is why I wonder if I'm the only civil libertarian left in America

He's guilty until proven otherwise? That's not how it works. He doesn't have to substantiate any alternate theory if the state cannot substantiate their theory against him. The burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed George Floyd, and if they can't do that, they have no business charging him with a crime.

In a case where he undertook an action that we all know would kill somebody, and somebody dies, and they have no other substantiated reason that the person died, guess what. The reasonable conclusion there is that the officer's actions killed him. If the officer's defense can't find something else that killed the man then it's gonna be a pretty fucking rock solid case that he killed the guy.

ah the goom we well know has returned. like a dragoon from a gateway

I'd refer you again to the example of the "shooting a dead hobo thinking he's sleeping". No, its not enough to shot he undertook an action (actus reas) and 'we all know would kill somebody' (mens reas, and a herculean stretch). You also need to show the action led to the death: Causation and Harm (and also the concurrence of the action & intent, if we want to get technical). Those are the elements of a murder prosecution.
Its a very well known aspect of criminal law that without actual causation and harm, you can't prove a crime was committed, but you can prove an attempt.

You can't just fudge those missing elements of a crime by inverting the standard of proof and saying that the accused needs to prove he didn't cause the death. The state has to prove each element, not pick a few from the list and say we can 'make a reasonable conclusion'. Its proof beyond a reasonable doubt, not reasonable presumption of guilt.

Man, I'd hate to live in the authoritarian dystopia you all think we live in. But we're heading there aren't we?

This post was edited by Goomshill on May 29 2020 08:52pm

Were already there. Just look at the three proud boys in NYC and Roger Stone.

Like I said, you're trying to take beyond a reasonable doubt into absolute certainty. If there has been no other potential cause of death shown then "does something that we know will cause death" followed by "person it was done to dies" leads to the obvious conclusion that "his actions caused death".

In your hobo situation in order to actually get the person off of murder charges you would have to bring in evidence that shows the hobo was already dead, otherwise the jury and everybody else is going to assume the hobo was alive before the action was undertaken.

I'm meaning in a practical sense. If you were to go in front of a jury and say "well, nobody knows if he was alive or dead before I shot him" you're gonna fry.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on May 29 2020 09:06pm

They don't even know the cause of death of George Floyd. You don't need the accused to prove another potential cause of death, if you can't even get a medical examiners report saying he caused it at all.
In the hobo situation, they'd only file charges after a medical examiner looked at the hobo and determined whether it was a homicide or not, what gun wounds he suffered, and thus know whether he was already dead prior to the shooting.
Which is why murder charges come after medical examiner reports. Not before them.

If the prosecution went in front of a jury and said "Well we aren't even sure he was shot, we haven't actually examined the body and don't know how he died", the guy would walk.

This post was edited by Goomshill on May 29 2020 09:10pm

The justice system is broke if it cannot reconcile transparency with swift action, especially in the age of body cam mandates and mass objective evidence from third party sources.