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May 11 2022 07:57am
CNN America - full article here: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/politics/putin-biden-jfk-russia-ukraine/index.html

(CNN)Reflecting on the Cuban missile crisis, President John Kennedy once warned that nuclear powers "must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war."
The showdown with Russian President Vladimir Putin over Ukraine does not yet mirror the one-minute-to-midnight brinkmanship that brought the Soviet Union and the West to the cusp of Armageddon in October 1962.
But Kennedy's superpower logic is resounding poignantly as Putin gets backed into a corner by the strategic disaster of his war, Ukraine's heroic resistance and an extraordinary multibillion-dollar allied conveyor of arms and ammunition.

President Joe Biden, who has always stated his twin aims are to help Ukraine defend itself and to avoid a direct escalation with Putin that could risk nuclear war, seems to have been mulling JFK's warning. At a fundraiser in Potomac, Maryland, on Monday night, Biden confided that he was concerned Putin had yet to devise an exit from the war, despite the former KGB officer's "calculating" nature. Senior national security officials, meanwhile, admit they do not yet know what kind of incremental Russian success in eastern and southern Ukraine would allow Putin to declare a victory of sorts and de-escalate the war, CNN's Kaitlan Collins reported.

This is all a worry. But it's one that seems somewhat discordant with US policy. After all, Washington's explicitly stated aim in supporting Ukraine is that Putin loses the war. Biden has asked Congress for $33 billion to send military and other aid to Ukraine, and the House on Tuesday voted to pass a roughly $40 billion bill. Washington is flooding the battlefield with anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, radars, drones, artillery rounds and howitzers. This aggressive Western approach, the slow progress of Putin's war of attrition and the lack of any diplomatic effort to end the war mean that it is almost certain the Russian leader will get further backed into a dangerous corner. Putin's only exit option right now appears to be a capitulation, and a tacit admission that the Western effort, combined with fierce Ukrainian courage, got the better of him -- a position that would be politically impossible to adopt.

There is no real consensus on what Putin might do if he's desperate. While he doesn't share Washington's logical and accurate view that he's losing the war, there's no indication he's suicidal and would risk a full-scale nuclear confrontation by testing Western resolve. Several senior US officials have publicly voiced the fear that Putin might reach for tactical, lower-yield battlefield nuclear arms as an alternative to a humiliating defeat in Ukraine. There was some relief on that score on Tuesday, when Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines told a congressional committee that the US view is there is not "an imminent potential for Putin to use nuclear weapons." And the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Lt. Gen. Scott Berrier, said that assessment also encompasses tactical or battlefield devices.

=====================

My one take away from this is that at least its been written in the public domain. To my mind (and most similarly less knowledgeable people) Ukraine could not have won the war. The fact that they can and that America went into this on that basis, makes me question what they expected Putin to do in such a scenario. it boggles my mind that America went into this on the assumption that Ukraine would win, but without fully fleshing out how Russia would extricate itself from the war. Putting it on to Putin to figure that out, when America has not figured it out themselves, is a bit risky.

any thoughts ? / anyone else ?

This post was edited by ferdia on May 11 2022 08:10am
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May 11 2022 10:01am
Quote (ferdia @ 11 May 2022 15:57)
CNN America - full article here: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/politics/putin-biden-jfk-russia-ukraine/index.html

(CNN)Reflecting on the Cuban missile crisis, President John Kennedy once warned that nuclear powers "must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war."
The showdown with Russian President Vladimir Putin over Ukraine does not yet mirror the one-minute-to-midnight brinkmanship that brought the Soviet Union and the West to the cusp of Armageddon in October 1962.
But Kennedy's superpower logic is resounding poignantly as Putin gets backed into a corner by the strategic disaster of his war, Ukraine's heroic resistance and an extraordinary multibillion-dollar allied conveyor of arms and ammunition.

President Joe Biden, who has always stated his twin aims are to help Ukraine defend itself and to avoid a direct escalation with Putin that could risk nuclear war, seems to have been mulling JFK's warning. At a fundraiser in Potomac, Maryland, on Monday night, Biden confided that he was concerned Putin had yet to devise an exit from the war, despite the former KGB officer's "calculating" nature. Senior national security officials, meanwhile, admit they do not yet know what kind of incremental Russian success in eastern and southern Ukraine would allow Putin to declare a victory of sorts and de-escalate the war, CNN's Kaitlan Collins reported.

This is all a worry. But it's one that seems somewhat discordant with US policy. After all, Washington's explicitly stated aim in supporting Ukraine is that Putin loses the war. Biden has asked Congress for $33 billion to send military and other aid to Ukraine, and the House on Tuesday voted to pass a roughly $40 billion bill. Washington is flooding the battlefield with anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, radars, drones, artillery rounds and howitzers. This aggressive Western approach, the slow progress of Putin's war of attrition and the lack of any diplomatic effort to end the war mean that it is almost certain the Russian leader will get further backed into a dangerous corner. Putin's only exit option right now appears to be a capitulation, and a tacit admission that the Western effort, combined with fierce Ukrainian courage, got the better of him -- a position that would be politically impossible to adopt.


Putin successes he can sell on his tv:
Destroying the "nazi" in Mariupol, Bucha and some other destroyed cities.
Ukraine "fascists" were attacked all over the country and will be rebuilding for like 10years.
"nazi labs" were all bombed and destroyed around the country.
Million of Ukrainian russian-speaking people were safely evacuated into welcoming russian lands. (in reality: kidnapped and transported to Syberia)
he can also say: "we wanted to help our Ukrainian brothers get rid of nazists, but they werent really much involved themselves and helping so we leave them alone with their nazi problem".
Ukraine can also make some new laws regarding fascism, its not a problem for them, it can be also sold as success.
Lets not forget he can say he lost to NATO, a typical Russian knows NATO is a strong evil Empire and its not a shame to loose.

Its doable, if Putin wants it.
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May 11 2022 01:43pm
Quote (Ironfister @ 11 May 2022 18:01)
Putin successes he can sell on his tv:
Destroying the "nazi" in Mariupol, Bucha and some other destroyed cities.
Ukraine "fascists" were attacked all over the country and will be rebuilding for like 10years.
"nazi labs" were all bombed and destroyed around the country.
Million of Ukrainian russian-speaking people were safely evacuated into welcoming russian lands. (in reality: kidnapped and transported to Syberia)
he can also say: "we wanted to help our Ukrainian brothers get rid of nazists, but they werent really much involved themselves and helping so we leave them alone with their nazi problem".
Ukraine can also make some new laws regarding fascism, its not a problem for them, it can be also sold as success.
Lets not forget he can say he lost to NATO, a typical Russian knows NATO is a strong evil Empire and its not a shame to loose.

Its doable, if Putin wants it.


I really doubt that Putin will admit defeat/weakness. Would kill the reputation/"brand" he has cultivated with his people.

Imho, once the Donbass is captured, Putin can order his troops to go home and sell it to his people as "we accomplished what we set out to do; we defended Crimea and liberated the ethnic Russians in Donbass from the nazis".
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May 11 2022 01:52pm
Putin will have hard time gaining ground, his army may even lose some places like yesterday, there's a name in russian for this kind of war ( where you lose much soldiers for none, or very few gains), it's blyatxxxx thingy. Maybe someone speaking russian will tell us the deep meaning and how it is considered in russia. Sanctions will do the rest and he will retire, die naturally, or get assassinated. Cars purchases down by 80% in Russia. During all this time he could still claim victory on TV.
Btw im curious to see war maps shown on russian national TV, and how it reflects and reflected reality since the start of the invasion.

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on May 11 2022 01:54pm
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May 11 2022 02:18pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 11 2022 02:43pm)
I really doubt that Putin will admit defeat/weakness. Would kill the reputation/"brand" he has cultivated with his people.

Imho, once the Donbass is captured, Putin can order his troops to go home and sell it to his people as "we accomplished what we set out to do; we defended Crimea and liberated the ethnic Russians in Donbass from the nazis".


Oh, there won't be any going home without beating Ukraine into submission, because they're going to keep fighting for their homeland.
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May 11 2022 02:49pm
Quote (Santara @ 11 May 2022 22:18)
Oh, there won't be any going home without beating Ukraine into submission, because they're going to keep fighting for their homeland.


Ukrainians are brave as hell, that's for sure. All other countries would shit their pants and collapse already I think.
But there is one person that can force UA into compromise.
That person is Joe Biden.
If Biden finds compromise deal with Putin to end the war, it could be Ukraine have no other choice but to accept the deal.
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May 11 2022 03:10pm
Quote (Ironfister @ May 11 2022 03:49pm)
Ukrainians are brave as hell, that's for sure. All other countries would shit their pants and collapse already I think.
But there is one person that can force UA into compromise.
That person is Joe Biden.
If Biden finds compromise deal with Putin to end the war, it could be Ukraine have no other choice but to accept the deal.


Joe Biden is a typical warmongering American president, and when you couple that with the current threat to the petrodollar by Russia's demand for Rubles for their oil, and the US is not going to tolerate the existence of that regime, so they will stay in a warfighting posture for the foreseeable future.
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May 11 2022 03:22pm
Despite what propaganda you may be reading, Russia are making slow but steady progress in the Donbas - about 95% of Luhansk and 50%+ of Donetsk is under their control, and they'll capture the rest of it. The issue is at what cost and also how they can hold it long term when Ukraine is armed to the teeth and there are heavy sanctions against Russia which impede the replenishment of military equipment?

The most interesting thing happening right now is the Kharkiv counteroffensive and how successful it has been. Will they move further east and try to cut off Russian supply lines? Most likely. Will they shell past the Russian border once they reach it? Maybe
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May 11 2022 03:39pm
Another map from Wikipedia: Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Russo-Ukrainian_War_detailed_map

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May 11 2022 06:54pm
- The Russians Lost Nearly An Entire Battalion Trying To Cross A River In Eastern Ukraine

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/05/11/the-russians-lost-nearly-an-entire-battalion-trying-to-cross-a-river-in-eastern-ukraine/amp/

- Also; Russians may stop their offensives and tacle another "phase" of the war that would imply referendums.
Maybe once the "referendums" are won, Russia could involve the nuclear weapon use as a direct response on russian territory integrity threat....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61338617

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on May 11 2022 06:55pm
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