d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev17407417427437445001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Views: 384834Replies: 50000Track Topic
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
#7411
May 5 2022 12:20am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 5 May 2022 08:09)
You mean if it wasn't for US policies vis a vis NATO and Russia, and trying to drive a wedge because it would be the prime loser in such a scenario.
Europe and Russia allies can't happen unless the eastern European countries (primarily Ukraine and Poland) are neutral.
Instead they are weaponized by USA as puppets encircle, weaken, and project power into Russia.


What a bullshit this is.
Ukraine wasnt weaponised by USA before 2014. Wasnt in NATO. Gave away their nukes.
And what was Russia reaction to that? They took part of their country in 2014, and now try to take the rest.
Eastern European countries are more numerous than Russia, yet for some reason you ask us to accept the Russia rules and to disarm ourselves because that's what Russia wants.
Like seriously, what the fuck?
Russia doesnt speak with the weak, they simply conquer the weak.
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Mar 10 2022
Gold: 0.00
#7412
May 5 2022 01:48am
Quote (Ironfister @ May 5 2022 09:20am)
What a bullshit this is.
Ukraine wasnt weaponised by USA before 2014. Wasnt in NATO. Gave away their nukes.
And what was Russia reaction to that? They took part of their country in 2014, and now try to take the rest.
Eastern European countries are more numerous than Russia, yet for some reason you ask us to accept the Russia rules and to disarm ourselves because that's what Russia wants.
Like seriously, what the fuck?
Russia doesnt speak with the weak, they simply conquer the weak.


If Russia controls eastern European countries, it can project its power into western Europe. The same goes if USA or a country like Germany in theory controlled eastern Europe.
This is a rule of geography that has governed the conduct of all involved nations for 100s of years, no less true than the laws of physics.
This is why an alliance based on partnership not subservience requires a neutral eastern Europe... especially true for Poland btw.
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
#7413
May 5 2022 02:22am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 5 May 2022 09:48)
If Russia controls eastern European countries, it can project its power into western Europe. The same goes if USA or a country like Germany in theory controlled eastern Europe.
This is a rule of geography that has governed the conduct of all involved nations for 100s of years, no less true than the laws of physics.
This is why an alliance based on partnership not subservience requires a neutral eastern Europe... especially true for Poland btw.


What you say is just dumb. You cant be neutral when Hitler is your neighbour country, lol. Guys like you forced Ukraine into being neutral, to keep friendly with Russia, and now its being attacked and since its neutral they are on their own. Dont you see its a deadend thinking? Russia wants to disarm a nation, then they attack. Repeat over and over.
And you didnt answer any of my question:
For some reason you believe Russian people are more important than eastern European. I already told you, that we are more numerous than them. Russia is also a small economy, size of a single medium sized European country. All the Russians got are their resources, and its only temporary while we havent switched Europe to clean energy yet.
The only thing Russia even matters now, is that some naive german politicians made their whole country economy dependant on a single Russian gas pipe that mr Putins threatens to cut.

This post was edited by Ironfister on May 5 2022 02:31am
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Mar 10 2022
Gold: 0.00
#7414
May 5 2022 03:18am
Quote (Ironfister @ May 5 2022 11:22am)
What you say is just dumb. You cant be neutral when Hitler is your neighbour country, lol. Guys like you forced Ukraine into being neutral, to keep friendly with Russia, and now its being attacked and since its neutral they are on their own. Dont you see its a deadend thinking? Russia wants to disarm a nation, then they attack. Repeat over and over.
And you didnt answer any of my question:
For some reason you believe Russian people are more important than eastern European. I already told you, that we are more numerous than them. Russia is also a small economy, size of a single medium sized European country. All the Russians got are their resources, and its only temporary while we havent switched Europe to clean energy yet.
The only thing Russia even matters now, is that some naive german politicians made their whole country economy dependant on a single Russian gas pipe that mr Putins threatens to cut.


Its not dumb its a fact of geopolitics that has been true for centuries. Ukraine was not neutral since 2014 coup.
I never think anything like Russia is "more imporant"... but eastern European countries are less powerful than Russia even if united. If history deems it fit to be different it might be one day, but this is our reality today.
Resources are key to developed economy, this is true since bronze age also. You think renewable energy technology even when it matures don't need resources to build.

Btw Poland should be neutral also :) It the key to long term peace in Europe.
I am not European and don't have personal stakes in this war, but in my view your real enemy is not Russia but the US who is in the interest of driving a wedge between Europe and Russia.
Member
Posts: 54,147
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
#7415
May 5 2022 04:14am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 5 May 2022 09:48)
If Russia controls eastern European countries, it can project its power into western Europe. The same goes if USA or a country like Germany in theory controlled eastern Europe.
This is a rule of geography that has governed the conduct of all involved nations for 100s of years, no less true than the laws of physics.
This is why an alliance based on partnership not subservience requires a neutral eastern Europe... especially true for Poland btw.

See, and that's the problem: Russia is not interested in a fair partnership, it wants subservient vassal states. That's what they did during the world war when they attacked Finland, Poland and the periphery states within the Soviet Union, it's what they did during the Cold War with the Warsaw Pact countries, it's what they kept doing in Moldovia, Georgia and now Ukraine in the post-90s era.


Even throughout the 2000s, Europe tried to expand the partnership with Russia, invited them into the G7, there was even a time when a Russian NATO membership seemed thinkable. The West looked the other way when Russia invaded Georgia and tried everything in its power to preserve a somewhat friendly and trustful relationship even after Russia annexed Crimea and captured the Donbass. And if Putin had sent his troops back home after the maneuvers in February this year, the relationship would still be okay in spite of Russia's countless aggressions.



Quote (Lebanon961 @ 5 May 2022 08:09)
You mean if it wasn't for US policies vis a vis NATO and Russia, and trying to drive a wedge because it would be the prime loser in such a scenario.
Europe and Russia allies can't happen unless the eastern European countries (primarily Ukraine and Poland) are neutral.
Instead they are weaponized by USA as puppets encircle, weaken, and project power into Russia.

What exactly do the US gain from the current situation? It forces them to stop, delay or even reverse their pivot to China, forces them to redirect military resources from the Pacific to Eastern Europe. It costs them billions in military aid. It pushes global energy prices and thus drives inflation. It benefits China and the OPEC countries, potentially forces the US to revoke their sanctions on Venezuela or Iran. The loss of purchasing power in their important European sales markets hurts their exports, just as it slows down the global economy as a whole. It weakens the Euro compared to the USD, which is bad for ordinary Europeans, but makes European export companies more competiive with US companies on the US market.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 5 2022 04:17am
Member
Posts: 5,157
Joined: Jun 5 2020
Gold: 301.67
Warn: 10%
#7416
May 5 2022 04:23am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 5 2022 12:14pm)
See, and that's the problem: Russia is not interested in a fair partnership, its primary interest is in conquering and creating subordinate vassal states. That's what they did during the world war when they attacked Finland, Poland and the periphery states within the Soviet Union, it's what they did during the Cold War with the Warsaw Pact countries, it's what they kept doing in Moldovia, Georgia and now Ukraine in the post-90s era.


Even throughout the 2000s, Europe tried to expand the partnership with Russia, invited them into the G7, there was even a time when a Russian NATO membership seemed thinkable. The West looked the other way when Russia invaded Georgia and tried everything in its power to preserve a somewhat friendly and trustful relationship even after Russia annexed Crimea and captured the Donbass. And if Putin had sent his troops back home after the maneuvers in February this year, the relationship would still be okay in spite of Russia's countless aggressions.




What exactly do the US gain from the current situation? It forces them to stop, delay or even reverse their pivot to China, forces them to redirect military resources from the Pacific to Eastern Europe. It costs them billions in military aid. It pushes global energy prices and thus drives inflation. It benefits China and the OPEC countries, potentially forces the US to revoke their sanctions on Venezuela or Iran. The loss of purchasing power in their important European sales markets hurts their exports, just as it slows down the global economy as a whole. It weakens the Euro compared to the USD, which is bad for ordinary Europeans, but makes European export companies more competiive with US companies on the US market.



dude you should read what you type.. unbelievable...
russia conquering and creating vassal states...

where are you from again? that america which involves peace on earth? just shut the fuck up stupid kid...

makes me angry that people are so dumb
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Mar 10 2022
Gold: 0.00
#7417
May 5 2022 04:31am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 5 2022 01:14pm)
See, and that's the problem: Russia is not interested in a fair partnership, it wants subservient vassal states. That's what they did during the world war when they attacked Finland, Poland and the periphery states within the Soviet Union, it's what they did during the Cold War with the Warsaw Pact countries, it's what they kept doing in Moldovia, Georgia and now Ukraine in the post-90s era.


I am talking about a partnership between Russia and Western Europe. In alliances, the smaller side is always subservient. Be it to Russia or USA or Western Europe. Neutral not allied, no Warsaw Pact nor NATO.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 5 2022 01:14pm)
Even throughout the 2000s, Europe tried to expand the partnership with Russia, invited them into the G7, there was even a time when a Russian NATO membership seemed thinkable. The West looked the other way when Russia invaded Georgia and tried everything in its power to preserve a somewhat friendly and trustful relationship even after Russia annexed Crimea and captured the Donbas. And if Putin had sent his troops back home after the maneuvers in February this year, the relationship would still be okay in spite of Russia's countless aggressions.


You mean while NATO was expanding eastward? The relations soured after Poland joined NATO and the while missile shield issue started causing drama.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 5 2022 01:14pm)
What exactly do the US gain from the current situation? It forces them to stop, delay or even reverse their pivot to China, forces them to redirect military resources from the Pacific to Eastern Europe. It costs them billions in military aid. It pushes global energy prices and thus drives inflation. It benefits China and the OPEC countries, potentially forces the US to revoke their sanctions on Venezuela or Iran. The loss of purchasing power in their important European sales markets hurts their exports, just as it slows down the global economy as a whole. It weakens the Euro compared to the USD, which is bad for ordinary Europeans, but makes European export companies more competiive with US companies on the US market.


A European Russian alliance is as big a threat to USA as China.
As European economics became more dependant on trade with Russia, the security situation did not reflect this will total dependence on NATO. This is a European policy blunder.
Now USA is abusing that security dependence to drive a wedge.
I don't know what will happen short or medium term but I have no doubt in long term more and more European will realize this.

Member
Posts: 54,147
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
#7418
May 5 2022 04:51am
Quote (Bananii @ 5 May 2022 12:23)
dude you should read what you type.. unbelievable...
russia conquering and creating vassal states...

where are you from again? that america which involves peace on earth? just shut the fuck up stupid kid...

makes me angry that people are so dumb

LMAO! Yes, America has also invaded and mistreated some foreign countries. This does not contradict or undo the Russian aggression though.


Also, the US have generally treated Europe far better than Russia. When East Germany, Hungary and Czechia wanted to go their own way, Russian tanks came waltzing in to bring them back under the Russian yoke. When Ukraine wanted to join a free trade zone with Europe, the Russia-aligned president vetoed it, then tried to quell pro-EU protests with force, and when that failed, Russia captured Crimea and the Donbass.

Meanwhile, the US have accepted Europe going their own way on many occasions. When they wanted to go to war in Iraq, France, Germany and a few smaller European nations outright refused allegiance. Did the US send carrier groups to bomb Paris and Berlin into submission, similar to what the Russians did in Budapest and Prague? No. In recent years, Europe signed trade deals with Japan, Canada and Mexico, but refused to sign a new trade deal with America. Did the US government make a fuss about it? No.


Member
Posts: 54,147
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
#7419
May 5 2022 05:02am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 5 May 2022 12:31)
I am talking about a partnership between Russia and Western Europe. In alliances, the smaller side is always subservient. Be it to Russia or USA or Western Europe. Neutral not allied, no Warsaw Pact nor NATO.

Western Europe has a significantly larger population, GDP, standing military as well as military spending than Russia. According to your logic, Russia should accept a subservient role in such a partnership. Do you think they'd be interested in that? ^_^


Quote
You mean while NATO was expanding eastward? The relations soured after Poland joined NATO and the while missile shield issue started causing drama.

NATO only expanded eastward because these smaller Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO. In fact, they couldn't wait to take shelter under NATO's protective umbrella because they were that scared of Russia's neoimperialist desires.
Also, the Russians have nuclear submarines, so it's not like a missile shield was an immediate threat to MAD.

Quote
A European Russian alliance is as big a threat to USA as China.
As European economics became more dependant on trade with Russia, the security situation did not reflect this will total dependence on NATO. This is a European policy blunder.

So you're saying Europe should have bet more strongly on security guarantees from Russia? That's what Ukraine did in the 90s when they gave up their nukes. Look where it got them - Russia not accepting their sovereignty, bullying them around since circa 2004 and outright invading them since 2014.

Quote
Now USA is abusing that security dependence to drive a wedge.

Again: none of this shit would be happening right now if Putin had sent his troops home after the maneuver in February. Putin is the one who crossed the line and drove the final wedge.
Member
Posts: 56,414
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 579,503.02
#7420
May 5 2022 05:07am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ May 5 2022 11:31am)
I don't know what will happen short or medium term but I have no doubt in long term more and more European will realize this.


I dont agree with this. I honestly think most european politicians are not able to look more then 4 years into the future, never mind everyone else.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 5 2022 12:02pm)
Again: none of this shit would be happening right now if Putin had sent his troops home after the maneuver in February. Putin is the one who crossed the line and drove the final wedge.


We have argued repeatedly that this conflicts origins predate Feb 2022 by a bit more then that (i.e. years in the making, as the Ukrainians have already admitted). The latest date thats safest to use is either 2019, or 2014 (while accepting that before 2014 yes it had puppet government). Yes Putin drove the final wedge, but he did not drive all the wedges.

Quote (Ironfister @ May 5 2022 09:22am)
What you say is just dumb. You cant be neutral when Hitler is your neighbour country.


Hitler was a person, not a country. ascribing an entire country with this label is misguided. I read this earlier I liked it so feel free to read it! (or not!): https://news.umich.edu/putting-putin-in-his-place-a-dictator-at-war/

This post was edited by ferdia on May 5 2022 05:25am
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev17407417427437445001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll

© 2003-2026 d2jsp  Contact