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Apr 19 2022 04:36am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 19 2022 05:33am)
this is not specific to Ukraine: Where you have 2 sides evenly matched but not in agreement, when one side wins the other side will be bitter. its far better for both sides to agree on something which is mutually beneficial so as to mitigate against long term discord.


The Holodomor, decades of Soviet oppression, and this invasion say that Ukraine has no interest.
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Apr 19 2022 04:41am
Quote (Santara @ Apr 19 2022 11:36am)
The Holodomor, decades of Soviet oppression, and this invasion say that Ukraine has no interest.


Did you not mean Russia ? The Holodomor is a historic event and provides background but in and of itself I do not see it as the reason why the two countries do not get along. Further decades of soviet oppression is a good reason for Ukraine to seek items that they can agree on with Russia and further the invasion of Russia into Ukraine is all the more reason for Ukraine to seek items that they can agree with, with Russia.

finally bear in mind you are quoting me when in the post you quoted i specifically said : this is not specific to Ukraine.



This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 19 2022 04:44am
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Apr 19 2022 04:44am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 19 2022 11:44am)
In northern Ireland the IRA (a terrorist organization that sought for the unification of Ireland via terrorist activities) acquired a lot of sympathy from elements within the US and elsewhere. There is ample reading material on this. The IRA has now effectively stopped, and instead they pursue their goals through political means, namely, the Sinn Fein political party. It is worth noting however that while they have stopped, they are still there. Northern Ireland, even now, decades later, is still deeply divided with alot of social problems. One side wants to be ruled by England "unionists" while the other side wants to be united with southern ireland "republicans".

I would see similar issues in Ukraine. What is different is that Ireland is an island, and Ukraine is not, and therefore (please dont flame me :( ) ultimately if the two sides are not able to reconcile (highly likely) then a parting of ways honestly may be the best thing long term for Ukraine.

This debate on division is all months, if not years away, so there is really no point going in to this now or arguing the merits or fairness or logistics or morality. I know that the nazi element is not one and the same as those in eastern ukraine but they are all interconnected which is why overall it remains to be seen what Ukraine looks like by the end of all this.

The most likely scenario which I would see is after the war (if it ends anytime in the next 1 month to 5 years) the most likely outcome is that gun crime and drugs will go through the roof (as it did in northern ireland) noting the value of life will by then have sharply declined, as it did in ireland, in the eyes of radical organizations.

full disclosure, I am in the republic of ireland (southern ireland) and I would like if northern ireland integrated with southern ireland. i would like to see that in my life time but i would only hope for that if there was at least a 70% vote in northern ireland for that. (i am divided on such votes as 51/49 noting advancement is sometimes done by the narrowest of margins but that bad laws can also come into force via this means). if they want to rule themselves, let them. if they want to forge their own path, let them.


I'm sorry to tell you this but you were brainwashed by MSM into thinking there is real divide in Ukraine. Besides the population at the Russian borders who were stirred up by Russia and Azow batallion, no one in Ukraine itself wants a separation. They want to remain Ukrainian. Ukraine is a multinational state. They've got ethnic Turks in tartars, lots of Russian and a non significant part of minority ethnies who all identify themselves as Ukrainians and want to live the Ukrainian way. The division was artificially made by promoting extremist parties to power. Defacto repressions of ethnic Russians, killing in Donbas etc. didn't help. Ukrainians aren't idiots, they know/knew a direct confrontation with Russia would never end up well for them. The proof is their last election. Rightwing extremists got just 3% of the votes, people were fed up with them not honoring Minsk agreements and escalacting the situation further. Selensky was elected for Peace. He was supposed to bring peace. Previous government amassed 60k professional army trained by Brits and US (What the f*** were they doing there? Why does no one question their invovlement? Ukraine isn't a Nato country, right?) around the Donbas area. Their aim was to "pacifiy" the region once and for all. All their ranks were infiltrated by rightwing militants (police, SBU, the army). In this kind of environment, Selensky would've never achieved his goal. He is a hostage. Even his bodyguards are from rightwing extremist groups (identifiable in every footage). They're watching each of his steps. So no, Ukraine isn't comparable to Ireland at all. Even Russia isn't just Russia. The people who massacred in Bucha were Buryats. That's how a Buryat looks like:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burjaten

They don't look or live like a Russian from Moskow for example or St.Petersburg but identify as Russian as any other ethnic group living there.They are Russian.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Apr 19 2022 04:46am
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Apr 19 2022 04:46am
Quote (babun1024 @ Apr 19 2022 11:44am)
I'm sorry to tell you this but you were brainwashed by MSM into thinking there is real divide in Ukraine. Besides the population at the Russian borders who were stirred up by Russia and Azow batallion, no one in Ukraine itself wants a separation. They want to remain Ukrainian. Ukraine is a multinational state. They've got ethnic Turks in tartars, lots of Russian and a non significant part of minority ethnies who all identify themselves as Ukrainians and want to live the Ukrainian way. The division was artificially made by promoting extremist parties to power. Defacto repressions of ethnic Russians, killing in Donbas etc. didn't help. Ukrainians aren't idiots, they know/knew a direct confrontation with Russia would never end up well for them. The proof is their last election. Rightwing extremists got just 3% of the votes, people were fed up with them no honoring Minsk agreements and escalacting the situation further. Selensky was elected for Peace. He was supposed to bring peace. Previous government amassed 60k professional army trained by Brits and US (What the f*** were they doing there? Why does no one question their invovlement? Ukraine isn't a Nato country, right?) around the Donbas area. Their aim was to "pacifiy" the region once and for all. All their ranks were infiltrated by rightwing militants (police, SBU, the army). In this kind of environment, Selensky would've never achieved his goal. He is a hostage. Even his bodyguards are from rightwing extremist groups (identifiable in every footage). They're watching each of his steps. So no, Ukraine isn't comparable to Ireland at all. Even Russia isn't just Russia. The people who massacred in Bucha were Buryats. That's how a Buryat looks like:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burjaten

They don't look or live like a Russian from Moskow for example or St.Petersburg but identify as Russian as any other ethnic group living there.


If thats the case then explain Crimea. Is that all propaganda as well ? i.e. that they are happy to be "russian".
MSM is a very broad definition but if you look at the news i provide it is global and varied, therefore it disconnects with your narrative.
If I am providing news from America China and Russia are you seriously telling me they all tell the same story ?

I thought several people already showed the different voting patterns throughout Ukraine, was that all made up ? I am not going back over 200 pages to find it!

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 19 2022 04:54am
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Apr 19 2022 04:50am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 19 2022 12:46pm)
If thats the case then explain Crimea. Is that all propaganda as well ? i.e. that they are happy to be "russian".
also i dont actually have MSM included in my links.

Crimea couldn't care less about being Russian or Ukrainian until Ukraine cut off water and food supply from mainland. Most people there with the exception of farmers are working for Russia though so that's that. You wouldn't expect a majour resistance and there isn't one.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Apr 19 2022 04:51am
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Apr 19 2022 04:51am
Quote (babun1024 @ Apr 19 2022 11:50am)
Crimea couldn't care less about being Russian or Ukrainian until Ukraine cut off water and food supply from mainland.


By that same logic, when you bomb the shit out of a place for years on end they tend to reconsider their position.
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Apr 19 2022 04:54am
Comparing Ireland to Ukraine makes less sense than comparing Ireland to Chechnya where I see more parallels
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Apr 19 2022 04:55am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 19 2022 12:51pm)
By that same logic, when you bomb the shit out of a place for years on end they tend to reconsider their position.

That's also one sided. Russians aren't saints at all. They are evil because any country possessing much power is evil. Point is little was done to curb the escalation spirale. Germany and France prevented this war's escalation in 2014 by being garants of the Minsk agreements. Ukrainian goverment didn't honor them, Russia didn't then in return until the situation escalated to the present day war.
Quote (Norlander @ Apr 19 2022 12:54pm)
Comparing Ireland to Ukraine makes less sense than comparing Ireland to Chechnya where I see more parallels


Yes, makes more sense.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Apr 19 2022 04:57am
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Apr 19 2022 05:01am
Quote (Norlander @ Apr 19 2022 11:54am)
Comparing Ireland to Ukraine makes less sense than comparing Ireland to Chechnya where I see more parallels


Yea but the topic is about Ukraine not Chechnya. Feel free to compare Chechnya to Ukraine if you want. I dont know enough about Chechnya to draw comparisons.

Quote (babun1024 @ Apr 19 2022 11:55am)
That's also one sided. Russians aren't saints at all. They are evil because any country possessing much power is evil. Point is little was done to curb the escalation spirale. Germany and France prevented this war's escalation in 2014 by being garants of the Minsk agreements. Ukrainian goverment didn't honor them, Russia didn't then in return until the situation escalated to the present day war.

Yes, makes more sense.


ascribing evil to an entire race is just wrong sorry. If you want to rephrase how you said it go ahead, and if not, it is what it is.
I would say your argument is ill formed noting America and China have more power, and various countries around the world have regional power, or absolute power over their nation. that does not make that nation evil.
happy for you to rephrase / clarify.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 19 2022 05:05am
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Apr 19 2022 05:04am
Today, in a strange coincidence, is the day when The American Revolutionary War started. Even more parallels.
Speaking about Chechnya and Ireland. Both have a century history of rebelling a colonial empire, agressive, despite of being rebellions still speak colonial language, adopt colonial culture and widely represented there as somewhat freedom fighters.

This post was edited by Norlander on Apr 19 2022 05:11am
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