Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 1 2025 03:48am)

No matter what Trump says, it already were the Europeans which were footing the bulk of the bill for this war. Be it arms supplies, financial assistance, feeding 10 million Ukrainian refugees spread across the continent or the economic fallout. Likewise, it was always obvious that the Europeans would foot most of the rebuilding effort post-war.

This will only be a massive win for North America if the peace deal which will be signed in the coming months actually holds up in the long run and succeeds in pacifying this conflict once and for all.

Quote (Goomshill @ 1 Mar 2025 10:49)

This is precisely what was being litigated in front of the whole world at this press conference. It is a question of military dominance. The only guarantee Ukraine can have against Russia being a threat, is a military threat that would make invasion impossible. That means NATO presence, or nukes. Or simply beating Russia in a war and the Russians capitulating. That's the thing about victors in a war, the losers don't get to dictate the terms and demand a future where they have the dominant position.

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What guarantee did imperial japan have that America wouldn't pillage the japanese homelands and take their women as sex slaves like they had done in china and korea? Unconditional surrender. What guarantees did nazi germany have? When the Israelis and Palestinians or Hezbollah agree to their umpteenth ceasefire, what guarantees do they get it will never happen again?

Quote (PapaPsych @ 1 Mar 2025 10:58)

You don't get to count economic fallout of your politicians shutting down your industries to 'stick it to putin' as a contribution to the war effort.
It's the EU's fault they spent a trillion dollars on energy subsidies.

Quote (Goomshill @ 1 Mar 2025 10:49)

This is precisely what was being litigated in front of the whole world at this press conference. It is a question of military dominance. The only guarantee Ukraine can have against Russia being a threat, is a military threat that would make invasion impossible. That means NATO presence, or nukes. Or simply beating Russia in a war and the Russians capitulating. That's the thing about victors in a war, the losers don't get to dictate the terms and demand a future where they have the dominant position. What guarantee did imperial japan have that America wouldn't pillage the japanese homelands and take their women as sex slaves like they had done in china and korea? Unconditional surrender. What guarantees did nazi germany have? When the Israelis and Palestinians or Hezbollah agree to their umpteenth ceasefire, what guarantees do they get it will never happen again?

You are hitting the nail on the head that NATO was never going to commit to Ukraine when it risks world war 3. And its been clear since the war began, and its why I kept calling out how suicidal and destructive the ukrainian ultranationlists infecting the Biden administration were, because they weren't just compromising American interests, they were going to get get Ukraine destroyed in the pull between east and west. Russia was always willing to invest force to secure their own back yard and we weren't willing to step in with a nuclear ultimatum that we would defend Ukraine even if it meant the brink of armageddon. We don't know whether such a threat would be a bluff or get called or get us all killed, because Biden meekly stood back and told Russia directly we would not fight on Ukraine's behalf and stood down so very publicly. And all the consequences have played out just as predictably as we expected, and when the next step we expect is all those weapons in the hands of an azovite coup, well that doesn't bode well

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 1 2025 04:03am)

Imho, you're falling for a false dilemma fallacy here. A Ukrainian or Russian capitulation aren't the only possible outcomes. "Russia ultimately accomplishes its core goals, but it was so painful and costly that they will think twice about invading Ukraine again" is a middle of the road outcome, and clearly the one the West had been striving for for the past 2 years, roughly since the Ukrainian counteroffensive failed and it became clear that Crimea and the DPR/LPR were gone.

Quote (kayko @ Mar 1 2025 04:09am)

I think the best form of guarantee Ukraine could have had from Russia invading was to work with both the West and Russia economically, so that the war wouldn’t be in anyone’s interest.

But, instead, they chose to be NATO’s pawn in putting more and more pressure on Russia, moving military bases closer to the Russian border. Also a completely corrupt country, with bioweapon labs, no rule of law, oligarchs laundering public money, etc.

Quote (Goomshill @ 1 Mar 2025 11:25)

But along came Dark Brandon and we instead blew up the Russian pipelines in a naked bit of economic warfare. Without economic incentive, Russia had no reason to compromise and only dug in harder and invested more in the war.

Quote (kayko @ 1 Mar 2025 11:52)

I even heard recently that the war was not only indirectly provoked by NATO expansion but also directly triggered by communicating to Putin the rockets will be put on the Russian border.

Obviously can’t know for sure if that’s true or not, but it would make sense to me.

Not only did Biden represented the forces of evil in this world that would do exactly such a thing, but also this whole initial phase of invasion didn’t look well planned in advance by Russia. More like a half-rushed decision.

Quote (Malopox @ 1 Mar 2025 12:05)

This is a proxy war and the US decides when the proxy war is over, not its proxies.

What has been done to Ukraine over the past decade is disgusting, it was used to bleed Russia and now its utility is over.

https://i.imgur.com/UFKgmas.jpeg