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Sep 19 2021 09:19am
Quote (bogie160 @ 19 Sep 2021 16:52)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Remove the tax havens and you're left with Norway and the United States. The PPP per capita picture doesn't look all that different.



Your argument is a truism. European social safety nets are good because they're good. When we look at weighted calculations (e.g. HDI) that try to account for life expectancy, education, and wealth, we don't find that more social spending is necessarily better. Given how unhealthy Americans like to eat (our food is both affordable and plentiful), I'm shocked that the United States scores that highly. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And as I said, the United States is a country on scale with the European Union. There's enormous geographic and economic diversity. Alabama is no more going to be as wealthy as Massachusetts as Greece is going to be as wealthy as Norway. But when we take it as a whole, we see that the American model has worked to provide a comparatively higher standard of living.

I'm not here to shit on the EU's spending decisions, I am pointing out that your portrayal of the United States doesn't match reality. It is a different model that, despite shouldering the defensive burden of freeloaders, has consistently delivered some of the highest living standards in the world.


what? you aren't even trying to keep up, are you? that isn't at all the argument here. this is about the lazy old talking point that "socialism" (by which right wing americans try to smear any kind of government spending on the working class) is not the kind of evil, nation destroying ideology that the propaganda you're brainwashed with is suggesting. in fact, it leads to superior (better health, longer life, fewer working hours, more security, less poverty, more protections, and also more freedom) outcomes for the average individual than america's socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the poor.

you have a "different model" not because the american people wouldn't want more equality, healthcare, affordable education, worker protection... but because your political leaders, who are beholden to wealthy donors, don't want that. you licking their boots and doing mental gymnastics in order to distract from that simple observation won't change that.
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Sep 19 2021 09:31am
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ 19 Sep 2021 17:15)
what fender refuses to understand that the system in the us accepts more poverty in return for more freedom and opportunity

why are people lining up at the border to get into the states? for the opportunities you have there

as for europe, safety nets are nice and all, but in return governments take like half your paycheck before you ever touch it, keeping people poor with little savings, when you have no real estate inheritance from your parents

in the united states poverty is a choice, in europe the state pushes you down

thats the difference


meanwhile in reality, social mobility is SIGNIFICANTLY greater in europe compared to the US. it's almost like unfettered capitalism directly leads to extreme inequality that is perpetuated through generations and leaves large swathes of the population to be exploited...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
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Sep 19 2021 09:57am
Quote (fender @ 19 Sep 2021 14:14)
"i take no responsibility"

https://i.imgur.com/Nv275rS.png


Looking at covid deaths from Delta is a murky point since it has mostly hit the South so far, which happens to be the Republican stronghold. Last year, we had the same patterns: the Southern US seeing big outbreaks during summer and fall, but a comparatively mild winter while the coasts and the North had low numbers during summer but much worse winters than the South.

It's simply too early to try to disentangle geographic from political influences on the spread and death toll of the Delta variant. If blue states get through the coming winter much better than the red states, than your point will stand. If it's a repeat of the patterns we saw last winter, with blue states having both higher cases and tougher restrictons than red states, then the point will be moot.
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Sep 19 2021 10:14am
Regarding the debate about how well people in the US are doing vs those in Europe, take a look at this stat:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income


So in 2016, the U.S. were literally third highest in the world in terms of disposable (after taxes, transfers and government benefits) median household income (PPP), behind only Norway and Switzerland, but ahead of all the other European heavy hitters and even ahead of the rest of Scandinavia. And also ahead of Canada and Australia, two OECD countries with vast natural resources which have to be shared only among a very small population.



The problem of the U.S. is not that the average citizens are doing badly by comparison, it's that the country's poor are really fucking poor and miserable compared to those in other first world countries.
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Sep 19 2021 10:17am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 19 2021 11:14am)
The problem of the U.S. is not that the average citizens are doing badly by comparison, it's that the country's poor are really fucking poor and miserable compared to those in other first world countries.


Basically yes. The issue with the U.S. is we are dog shit at distributing the benefits of productivity, not that we don't produce a crap load of stuff.

We could easily afford a national healthcare system and stronger social safety net, but that would require eating into the highest income's wealth, and that's just not something our incredibly corrupt campaign finance system would ever allow.
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Sep 19 2021 10:23am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 19 Sep 2021 18:17)
Basically yes. The issue with the U.S. is we are dog shit at distributing the benefits of productivity, not that we don't produce a crap load of stuff.

We could easily afford a national healthcare system and stronger social safety net, but that would require eating into the highest income's wealth, and that's just not something our incredibly corrupt campaign finance system would ever allow.


Pretty much, yes. In particular, the lack of a reliable social safety net decreases the leverage of workers and increases the leverage of employers, which artificially depresses wages.
Stuff like universal healthcare, more widespread child benefits and so on would, in the macro perspective, increase the share of wages among the GDP and decrease the capital side's share of the pie.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 19 2021 10:23am
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Sep 19 2021 10:31am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 19 Sep 2021 17:57)
Looking at covid deaths from Delta is a murky point since it has mostly hit the South so far, which happens to be the Republican stronghold. Last year, we had the same patterns: the Southern US seeing big outbreaks during summer and fall, but a comparatively mild winter while the coasts and the North had low numbers during summer but much worse winters than the South.

It's simply too early to try to disentangle geographic from political influences on the spread and death toll of the Delta variant. If blue states get through the coming winter much better than the red states, than your point will stand. If it's a repeat of the patterns we saw last winter, with blue states having both higher cases and tougher restrictons than red states, then the point will be moot.


you just can't help it, huh? every post illustrating how republican science-denial kills people triggers one of those mental gymnastic performances, desperately trying to deny the obvious.

people like ampoo and endless are at least just genuinely dumb and don't know any better - but you, you're just dishonest to the core. you're vaccinated because you know it's the smart thing to do, but still pander to the gullible stupids every chance you get. you're basically pard's tucker carlson...
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Sep 19 2021 10:37am
Quote (fender @ Sep 19 2021 05:31pm)
meanwhile in reality, social mobility is SIGNIFICANTLY greater in europe compared to the US. it's almost like unfettered capitalism directly leads to extreme inequality that is perpetuated through generations and leaves large swathes of the population to be exploited...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index


not as bad as expected when i clicked on it and still above italy

your statement is not wrong in itself, the only reason europe is doing a bit better in that regard is because the productive people are bailing the rest out

the moment solidarity stops you will get the same results

however that does not change the fact you will have better opportunities becoming wealthy etc in the united states compared to europe (look at migration stats from germany, people are leaving for a reason)

a possible solution to lift more people up would probably be to cut that ridiculous defense budget in half or so and invest into education....so not gonna happen

btw, i dont mind social inequality in general, its human nature and only fair

people who provide significantly more value than others deserve it

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Sep 19 2021 11:05am
Quote (fender @ 19 Sep 2021 18:31)
you just can't help it, huh? every post illustrating how republican science-denial kills people triggers one of those mental gymnastic performances, desperately trying to deny the obvious.

people like ampoo and endless are at least just genuinely dumb and don't know any better - but you, you're just dishonest to the core. you're vaccinated because you know it's the smart thing to do, but still pander to the gullible stupids every chance you get. you're basically pard's tucker carlson...


Do you have any substantive argument?

Here, I'll post some pics for you to see the clear spatio-temporal pattern:




Big peaks in the summer and comparatively low peaks in winter in the South.


--------------



Almost no outbreak during summer, but a high peak and persistently high cases in winter in the North.
It's the same general pattern in other northern states like Michigan or Illinois too.


Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 19 2021 11:05am
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Sep 19 2021 11:24am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 19 Sep 2021 19:05)
Do you have any substantive argument?

Here, I'll post some pics for you to see the clear spatio-temporal pattern:
https://i.imgur.com/Bjk9PQ4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SE4Pcxb.jpg

Big peaks in the summer and comparatively low peaks in winter in the South.


--------------

https://i.imgur.com/UJzXq0j.jpg

Almost no outbreak during summer, but a high peak and persistently high cases in winter in the North.
It's the same general pattern in other northern states like Michigan or Illinois too.


Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/


is your reading comprehension really that bad? thought i was pretty clear in my post: my argument is that republican politicisation of the virus lead to vaccination hesitancy and ultimately higher death rates, as neatly illustrated by the graphic i posted. it's not exactly rocket science either. i also made the argument that you're a hack for constantly trying to deny the obvious, pandering to the anti-vaxx crowd.
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