Fair argument, but I have to vehemently disagree. The West and Ukraine tried to appease Russia after 2014, they let Russia get away with the annexation of Crimea against international law, they were willing to accept Russian control over the separatist regions in Donbass. A NATO membership was not realistic, no matter how much the Ukrainian government might have ran their mouth about it.

In particular, it's asinine to assume that ceding Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk to Russia would have resulted in peace and sovereignty for the rest of Ukraine. Putin doesn't recognize Ukraine's right to exist as a sovereign nation, he's overtly said so throughout the years on countless occasions. Imho, this war had to happen to settle the issue. Only after a scenario in which Russia tried and failed to subjugate Ukraine can the rest of Ukraine, however much of it is left after the war, become a free nation.




The way I see it, Putin threw down the gauntlet to the rest of the world and formulated what I would call the "Putin doctrine" about the "limited sovereignty of Russia's neighbors". The invasion of Ukraine has made it clear once and for all that he's willing to go to any lengths to enforce it. This current war is essentially a battle between the West and Russia to see if Putin actually has the ability to enforce this doctrine.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 13 2022 08:19am

Because they are fcking stupid and the Eurolemmings are sleepwalking themselves to their own deaths just to virtue-signal over Ukraine.

i wont deny that you opposed warmongering in the past, because you did, but then why do you deny this current war being also a product of western geopolitical games

its not a misinterpretation or downplaying putin starting this brutal war to say that it usually takes two to tango

giving ukraine a neutral status to prevent an escalation goes back all the way to george bush and his advisors

putin was dumb enough to make his move into what is now a proxy war at the expense of the ukranian people

they will pay back the "help" we so generously provided for decades (lend and lease style), while banks and military industrial complex cant stop laughing

Might want to read more than the first 5 pages. Try the last 8 years of the Ukraine civil war starting with the CIA-backed 2014 Maidan coup, actually.

Yes and that might end up being exactly what happens.

Because at the end of the day if lives can be saved and objectives achieved at the same time, that is a win.

But don't be surprised when it ends up being the entire black sea coast Russia takes.

the last 8 years of the Ukrianian civil war, and as referring to a CIA backed COUP, these to my mind would have been factors to be considered as to why Russia invaded. remember your view was Russia would not invade, my view was they would invade. [ both topic's made before Russia did, in fact, invade ].

Radical islamists have been rapidly gaining ground in Indonesia for the past decade plus. If I was a Singaporean geostrategists advising the SG government, I wouldn't bet on them remaining a friendly and secular neighbor indefinitely.




The Ukrainiain leaders and people were well aware of that when they chose to fight instead of surrender. From what I can tell, the vast majority of the ethnic Ukrainians are firmly behind Zelensky's course and willing to make a stand against Russian aggression right here, right now. Countless Ukrainians living in Western Europe moved to Ukraine, willing to risk their lives so they can join this fight.

Who are we to tell them that rolling over and chosing an existence as an enslaved and subjugated vassal state of Russia, including thousands of executed civilians and hundreds of thousands of raped women and children, would have been the better tradeoff for them?

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 13 2022 08:30am

No, both got close at some point in 2010 but Putin did not pushed forward for it, nor pushed for more human rights or less corruption.
We could say "USA's fault: provoked conflict in ukraine 2014" but this is wrong: Putin & associated gangsters simply wanted to keep their hand on russian people without being interfered by European union.

Btw imagine Russia joining EU and then New kind of NATO done: creating bases in VLADIVOSTOK.

Do you have any sources that you can provide to support this view ?

I wont be, because unlike you ive said all along thats what the war was about. a land grab, not a righteous war against nazis. not to protect ethnic russians.

its to grab land and prove to countries on the NATO bubble that wanting to join NATO means they're a target before they can even join, and that the west wont move in to save them.



there used to be a hell of a view from the top of the twin tower buuuuuuuuuuuuut

This post was edited by thesnipa on Apr 13 2022 08:37am