Quote (ferdia @ 3 Dec 2024 01:10)

(...)
Russia invaded Ukraine after Ukraine spent 8 years bombing its own people in eastern Ukraine.

Zelensky was voted into office with 3 mandates, one of which was a pledge to mend ties with Russia. However, It was Zelensky that torpedoed the Minsk agreement and with his actions along with those of the US at the time that contributed to the heightened tensions which led to Russia invading Ukraine. Meanwhile Russia and China had over 1000 border / territorial disputes. through DIPLOMACY and NEGOTIATION they now have ZERO active territorial disputes left. That was actively resolved by Russia and China.

amazing what a bit of DIPLOMACY and NEGOTIATION can do, when it is a fact that these are two vastly different cultures. So TLDR: the idea that Russia is a savage dog is departed from reality. They subscribe to tit for tat.

Quote (El1te @ 3 Dec 2024 01:21)

Isn't it better for Ukrainians to just flee West, like every single Ukrainian with money did? The only stayniks are the ones who are forced to stay because they have no means to leave

Quote (Ironfister @ 2 Dec 2024 17:22)

Also Ukraine was not bombing their own people. This is Russia propaganda. Of course there were some minor accidents, because this is urban area, but thats it.

Quote (Ironfister @ 2 Dec 2024 17:39)

until recent Russian victories many Ukrainians thought that they can win the war, and there was a big support to keep fighting in Ukraine.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ 3 Dec 2024 02:26)

Human Rights Watch groups have been tracking the atrocities committed against the peoples of the Donbas since Zelenski took power. Yes, they HAVE been bombing the Republics. Yes, they HAVE been murdering the people of the Republics.

Let us not forget, Zelenski took power during a violent coup, and he was not "voted into power". Their Congress/Parliament/Whatever confirmed him as ruler AT GUNPOINT. And NO representation from the Donbas Republics was included. They chose not to follow this usurper, and declared independence. At exactly no point has Zelenski EVER controlled the Donbas Republics. He's just sicced his Asov Nazis on them for nearly a decade, and hoped nobody would notice.

Keep apologizing for Nazis. You aren't unique. Our own corporations apologized for the Nazis for years prior to Pearl Harbor. :)



Yes, absolutely! The people of Ukraine TOTALLY thought they could win! That's why conscription was enacted within the first month, amirite? :rolleyes:

Quote (Black XistenZ @ 2 Dec 2024 19:40)

Do you have a source for the bolded part?

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 2 2024 09:45pm)

Multiple sources have already been posted. In this thread. Feel free to search for them.

I'm not interested in playing the weak game of, "I don't believe these 6 words of your 200 word post, therefore, source or invalidated." Do your own homework.

The best thing Trump could do day 1 is immediately stop all payments from all US sources to Ukraine, as well as withdrawing all troops and equipment. Given the US Taxpayer has been paying the salaries of the Ukrainian government for the last 2 years, I'd say negotiations for peace would begin within days.

Edit: Edited to clarify US sources. Also, I could be wrong. It's possible that European nations would step up and keep the war going, as they're the ones, ultimately, who're terrified of Russia. I doubt it, somehow. The disaster that was the bombing of the Nord Stream pipelines has been disastrous for several European nations, chief amongst them Germany. Not a particularly good look.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 3 2024 01:26am)

Let us not forget, Zelenski took power during a violent coup, and he was not "voted into power". Their Congress/Parliament/Whatever confirmed him as ruler AT GUNPOINT. And NO representation from the Donbas Republics was included. They chose not to follow this usurper, and declared independence. At exactly no point has Zelenski EVER controlled the Donbas Republics. He's just sicced his Asov Nazis on them for nearly a decade, and hoped nobody would notice.:

Quote (InsaneBobb @ 3 Dec 2024 02:26)

Human Rights Watch groups have been tracking the atrocities committed against the peoples of the Donbas since Zelenski took power. Yes, they HAVE been bombing the Republics. Yes, they HAVE been murdering the people of the Republics.

Let us not forget, Zelenski took power during a violent coup, and he was not "voted into power". Their Congress/Parliament/Whatever confirmed him as ruler AT GUNPOINT. And NO representation from the Donbas Republics was included. They chose not to follow this usurper, and declared independence. At exactly no point has Zelenski EVER controlled the Donbas Republics. He's just sicced his Asov Nazis on them for nearly a decade, and hoped nobody would notice.

Keep apologizing for Nazis. You aren't unique. Our own corporations apologized for the Nazis for years prior to Pearl Harbor. :)



Yes, absolutely! The people of Ukraine TOTALLY thought they could win! That's why conscription was enacted within the first month, amirite? :rolleyes:

Quote (Ironfister @ 3 Dec 2024 01:39)

until recent Russian victories many Ukrainians thought that they can win the war, and there was a big support to keep fighting in Ukraine.
Unfortunately while Russia economy is in serious trouble, it still didnt collapse fully yet.
So Ukrainians need a plan "B" now.
If all goes wrong, if Trump doesnt make a permanent peace but only a temporary cease fire, then I would advise Ukrainians to flee west when they get the chance.
Its bad to give their land to Russia, but saving lives is important too.

Quote (Malopox @ 3 Dec 2024 09:55)

Majority of posters in this thread told everyone from day one that it is impossible for Ukraine to win this, that this is a sham and people’s brains are clouded with xenophobia and propaganda perpetuated a.o. by Polish nationalists (que in infamous Visegrad X account spewing batshit crazy propaganda and outright lies).