Quote (Malopox @ Nov 28 2024 04:20pm)

I miss the part about “ordered by the Russians”. Snyder is a known history revisionist (link quotes him) but even he is struggling to paint it as black and white.

Poland of 1930s was openly fascist, having its own non-aggression pact / sphere of influence pact with Nazi Germany and participating together with Nazis in various military adventures like annexation of Zaosie (Czechoslovakia). If not for Danzig dilemma, it was entirely possible that Polish would’ve willingly joined Nazis like Romanians and Hungarians.

Polish far right hated communists so it’s obvious there would’ve been tensions once USSR occupied them. Out of curiosity, how many Polish from those deported were allowed to return a few years later? Did Snyder write about that?

Quote

After the annexation, the Soviet NKVD started eliminating the predominantly Polish middle and upper classes, including social activists and military leaders.

Quote (babun1024 @ 28 Nov 2024 16:29)

It was literally in the quotes. Look up what NKVD is. Most of them weren't allowed to return.

Quote (Malopox @ Nov 28 2024 04:48pm)

I’m aware of what NKVD was.

What I’m looking for is nuance here. Snyder is a propagandist and Wikipedia is vandalized. I believe 200k were “Polish citizens” which includes Ukranians, Russians, Belorussians and Jews that were deported inland USSR. Many were ex military who murdered Soviets in the war of 1920 and there was some bad blood between then and communists. Arguably, in a dark twist of fate, this deportation saved many from extermination by the Nazis. I understand big chunk of those that returned were Anders army (120k) which was allowed to leave USSR via Iran in an agreement with Polish government in exile.

Fun fact: Menachem Begin was one of those “deported” that joined Anders army and left USSR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin. His family stayed behind in Brest and perished.

Quote (babun1024 @ Nov 28 2024 10:41am)

Soviet Russia killed more people in peace time than in WW2. They were absolutely the baddies. You can get the nuances wrong or right but they absolutely killed lots of people, resettled them, made them sick and die under dire conditions in Gulags or during the construction of railways god where knows in Siberia. They managed to fuck up the culture, the economy and long traditions. The only good thing people should adopt is their education system. Now, Soviet Russia != Russia. Stalin was Georgian, the guy who forced Germans out of Schlesien and killed the Poles was a Russian Jew, general Zhukov was the true Russian maybe. Russian themselves are got fucked over as well, the culmination was Perestroika.

The lesson people should learn => communism very bad.

Quote (El1te @ Nov 28 2024 08:10pm)

And yet, Germany and their regime ideology are the people demonized in our school systems, while the crimes of communism are ignored.

Why?

Quote (babun1024 @ 28 Nov 2024 15:59)

That's the point. CIA/USA, you name it especially supported that kind of nationalism, not the healthy one to overthrow the government in Kiew. They're openly nazi right now. You could verify it easily by visiting your local Ukrainian community. They call Russians Mongols :D
I preferred Angela Merkel's approach (I hate her for everything else though). Her doctrine was "Wandel durch Handel" which implies changes induced due to trade. Her idea was that by intensifying the contact through trade and cultural exchange, Eastern Europe and Russia at some point would be become more democratic over time which was really happening. Baltic states in the EU and Ukraine previous to the conflict were the prime examples of that (you need a minimum standard to join the EU, all Baltic states fulfilled the requirements). Poland just like the rest of the eastern Europe was left in a desolate, corrupt political state after the break with soviet Russia. Investment in Poland, bringing Poland into the EU then incorporating the army created the modern day Poland.
Ukraine could have joined the European Union. I don't think there would've been a problem. USA wanted NATO at Russia's borders, no one else.

The other part of Wandel durch Handel is if you depend on each other economically with strong ties, you'd think twice before attacking your neighbor. That's the sole reason Russia agreed to Minsk I, then Minsk II then the peace agreement before the war. They didn't want to lose all of their ties to their economic partners. No economic ties or call it sanctions, they won't care for you as well. All relationships are bilateral.
The west can escalate as much as possible. I don't think Russia would ever drop a nuke on Ukraine. They regard them as their own kin. They'd rather hit UK or USA directly, not kidding :D

Quote (El1te @ Nov 28 2024 07:10pm)

And yet, Germany and their regime ideology are the people demonized in our school systems, while the crimes of communism are ignored.

Why?

Quote (nuvo @ Nov 28 2024 10:11pm)

Its official russian state media. Its not media as we know it in the west, its state controlled propaganda. You can lie all you want and pretend whatever you like, but what Solovyov says is official russian script written in GRU headquarters. Including threats to nuke us. There is no free press in russia, stop acting as if it was a clown show.

I was just trying to show you how silly your entire argument is. You claim russia had the right to invade Ukraine and Georgia because NATO wanted them to join, and its geopolitcs and russia has to protect its interests.
But somehow if I flip the same script and ask you if NATO has the right to protect its geopolitcs and interests, you suddenly don't understand.

Asking you again. "Once again this is all about geo-politics and countries do defend their interests whether you like it or not." - is NATO allowed to defend their interests and strike russia?

Quote (Djunior @ Nov 29 2024 08:39am)

What a joke. You're quoting media channels claiming that these are official Russian channels. Prolly not the most delusional posts in this topic because we've seen some truly wild ones but it's up there.

What press secretary Peskov says is official and Russian MOD updates for example.


About NATO striking Russia: Since Russia has already stated that they're not going to accept NATO membership for Ukraine and have interfered in what you call "NATO affairs" (NATO expansion really) you can bet that it's another escalation and will mean more war. Wild that you cannot think for yourself and come to this conclusion. I ask you once again, where do you get your Ukraine war information?

Quote

they're not going to accept NATO membership for Ukraine